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  <title>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 27 May
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  <h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>

  <h2>27 May 2009</h2>

  <p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-irc">IRC
  log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd> jsalvachua, cperey, rreck, libby, adam, caribou, hhalpin, tpa, petef, melvster, mischat, tinkster, karl, lubya, dom, AlexPassant, timbl, norm, pmika, ivan, Hakan, uldis</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>
      <dd>Yuk, DanBri, DKA, Milan, Fabien, Raphael, AlexK, Renato</dd>

      <dt>Chair</dt>
      <dd>hhalpin</dd>
      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>Mischa</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
        2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item02">General Organization</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item03">Task forces</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item04">Invited Guests</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item05">Creating User Stories on the
        Wiki</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item06">Invited Guest Telecon: VCard in
        RDF</a></li>

      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">


    <h3 id="item01">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
        2009-05-27T13:00-15:00Z</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: to
    approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 20 May 2009 as a true record</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: approved
    SWXG WG Weekly -- 20 May 2009 as a true record</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: to meet
    again Wed, 3 June. scribe volunteer?</p>


    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Scribe?</p>


    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>adam</cite>&gt; i can do june 10th</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; OK, let's have adam
    provisionally as scribe for next meeting.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: move to a
    scribing list</p>

    <h3 id="item02">General Organization</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Liaisons">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Liaisons</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>apassant is a SPARQL liasion</p>

    <p class='phone'>in need of other ones ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Do we have any
    volunteers?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; are the groups that
    need liasons listed on the wiki?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Yes.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; I've put myself
    down for Microformats.</p>

    <p class='phone'>are in need of liasons</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; i may try to
    interface with dataportability.org</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Could you add
    yourselves to the wiki?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>jsalvachua:</cite> to be liaison with
    dataportability.org</p>

    <p class='phone'>toby to be liason with the microformats
    community</p>


    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>claudio</cite>&gt; +039011228aahh is
    claudio</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; C'mon no volunteers
    :(</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; I volunteered</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; for Social Network
    Portability Group List</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; i may help with
    other groups, with the vcard ietf group</p>

    <p class='phone'>renanto is on the wiki as the liason with
    "Policy Language Interest Group"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AlexPassant</cite>&gt; Uldis Bojars or
    John Breslin can be SIOC liaisons</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AlexPassant</cite>&gt; her's uldis</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; OK - could you
    check on them.</p><a name="action01" id="action01"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> AlexPassant to see about SIOC liason
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-15
    - See about SIOC liason [on Alexandre Passant - due
    2009-06-03].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>uldis</cite>&gt; sounds good</p>

    <p class='phone'>AlexPassant to check to see if we can find a
    SIOC liaison</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; I have added myself
    to wiki as volunteer liason for data portability, diso and
    social network portability</p><a name="action02" id=
    "action02"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[DONE]</strong> danbri sketch
    a 5 line template for interaction with other groups (cf
    InvitedExperts, DiscussionTopics) [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[DONE]</strong> karl to
    produce a template for TF deliverables. [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Karl - do you wish
    to explain your template?</p>

    <p class='phone'>Karl put together a template for the user
    stories</p>

    <p class='phone'>karl has put up 2 templates</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; are user stories aka
    use cases?</p>

    <p class='phone'>so user stories seemed too long</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i am developing a use
    case atm</p>

    <p class='phone'>karl suggests we should be concise and to the
    point</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; can someone put the
    URI to the templates into IRC</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Karl's template -
    <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009May/0103.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2009May/0103.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>goal of the templates are to speed up the
    writing</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; thanks Toby!</p>

    <p class='phone'>templates will give us a common look and
    feel</p>


    <p class='phone'>Karl is open to comments/modifications re: the
    templates</p>

    <p class='phone'>hhalpin happy with the user stories
    templates</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; how come petef.a not
    petef?</p>

    <p class='phone'>hhalpin would like a template for the final
    report to be put up on the wiki</p>

    <p class='phone'>hhalpin asks if anyone has any experience in
    this ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Does anyone have a
    final report template as well?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Does anyone want to
    take that action - i.e. finding a template for final
    deliverables?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; microformats.org
    write all specs on mediawiki - perhaps useful?</p>

    <p class='phone'>karl stated that someone should take an action
    to port the final report template to the wiki</p>

    <p class='phone'>can we not look at other XGs?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AlexPassant</cite>&gt; can a chair
    close this action -&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/14">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/14</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>adam</cite>&gt; i can take a stab at
    it</p><a name="action04" id="action04"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> adam to find a good final report
    template and port it to the wiki [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-16
    - Find a good final report template and port it to the wiki [on
    Adam Boyet - due 2009-06-03].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> adam seemed to suggest
    that he would look into the template</p>

    <h3 id="item03">Task forces</h3>


    <p class='phone'>hhalpin asks if anyone has any comments re:
    the organisation so we can move onto the task force issue</p>

    <p class='phone'>Task force issues: should we merge context /
    privacy ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Context and Privacy
    Task Force (Karl Dubost)? For Portability and Architectures
    Task Force (@@)?</p>

    <p class='phone'>so, harry is asking if people like proposed
    task force titles</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; Portability and
    Architectures - jsalvachua and petef volunteered last
    telecon.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cperey:</cite> has no preference for
    times, but thinks we need critical mass</p>

    <p class='phone'>and we need a clear agenda</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; signing up to task
    forces where?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Maybe we could
    remind people to sign up for task forces</p>

    <p class='phone'>cperey participation has gone down since the
    start of XG, cperey thinks we should find out how many people
    are interested in each Task force</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; petef : we both
    may start together to push the task force</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt; karl *MAY* be the task
    force leader ;)</p>

    <p class='phone'>should we find out how many are interested in
    each task force</p>


    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Also interested in
    portability/arch but not leading.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I agree</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Wiki page for each
    of these task forces?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; where?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I don't think we
    do.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; I can set up
    template wiki pages for them.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; I will draft one for
    portability and architectures</p><a name="action05" id=
    "action05"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> tinkster to draft wiki pages for task
    forces [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-17
    - Draft wiki pages for task forces [on Toby Inkster - due
    2009-06-03].</p>

    <p class='phone'>toby to set up wiki page re task forces, and
    people should add what they are thinking</p>


    <p class='phone'>portability task force, so hhalpin is
    interested in how the W3C can promote how data can be made
    portable</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i would be happy to
    contribute but would like to have the discussion on the
    list</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; I can just hear
    typing.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Portability_Architecture_TF">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Portability_Architecture_TF</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>jsalvachua:</cite> said that he will try
    and populate the wiki, regarding a roadmap for the portability
    task froce</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_Privacy_TF">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_Privacy_TF</a></p>

    <h3 id="item04">Invited Guests</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; 4. Invited
    Guests</p>

    <p class='phone'>I will put some stuff on the wiki for privacy
    task force</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; -q</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Anyone else?</p>

    <p class='phone'>invited speaker lists have been populated for
    the widget topic and the Vcard topic, does anyone else have any
    ideas on this ?</p>

    <p class='phone'>hajons, asks if people should just write to
    the wiki, if they want to join a task force ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; Yes, just sign up to
    task force on wiki page</p>

    <p class='phone'>or is there some other protocol</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; how do we join the
    task forces</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; ok</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>adam</cite>&gt; maybe once the task
    force pages are created, each person can add themselves as a
    member</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>adam</cite>&gt; of the task force</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 adam</p>

    <p class='phone'>hhalpin states that we should just add names
    to the list of task forces on the wiki</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i will join the
    privacy task force</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_Privacy_TF">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Context_Privacy_TF</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>;)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i dont feel capable
    of leading it</p>


    <p class='phone'>are we going to have invited guest for privacy
    and context ?</p>

    <p class='phone'>harry wodners if there is any mobile
    interest</p>

    <p class='phone'>from the group</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; yes, I will propose
    a guest on context / mobile</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; tim gave his
    regrets and daniel applequist can't make this meeting in
    particular :(</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Perhaps you can
    explain what the OSLO group is?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Does it have a
    web-page?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Open Sharing of
    LOcations</p>

    <p class='phone'>christine, is interested the mobile
    technologies, and christine also contacted someone (?)
    external, and they are not interested in developing
    protocols</p>

    <p class='phone'>OSLO group announced start earlier this year,
    and they are NOT interested with speaking to W3C</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Open Sharing of
    Location-based Objects (OSLO) - <a href=
    "http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/02/27/oslo-accord-pushes-location-sharing-between-social-networks/">
    http://uk.techcrunch.com/2009/02/27/oslo-accord-pushes-location-sharing-between-social-networks/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Christine, perhaps
    stay in touch with them?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>caribou</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/InvitedGuests</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>there are others which could speak to the
    w3c</p>

    <p class='phone'>but we need some specific questions</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Maybe brainstorm on
    the wiki what specific questions would be relevant to these
    mobile operators?</p>

    <p class='phone'>so that christine could approach people</p>


    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Or what is part of
    their problems?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; What could they
    need?</p>

    <p class='phone'>nokia people did context and mobile stuff, and
    I could ask Mor Naaman to talk about the Zonetag project</p>

    <p class='phone'>but i am out of touch with the mobile
    stuff</p>

    <p class='phone'>harry asked if we could have a wiki page /
    content regarding the mobile space</p><a name="action06" id=
    "action06"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> cperey to add mobile companies to to
    Invited Guests and to brainstorm what exact questions or topics
    would be most interesting [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action06</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-18
    - Add mobile companies to to Invited Guests and to brainstorm
    what exact questions or topics would be most interesting [on
    Christine Perey - due 2009-06-03].</p>

    <p class='phone'>christine would like an agenda to take to the
    mobile experts before contacting them</p>


    <h3 id="item05">Creating User Stories on the Wiki</h3>


    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; any more
    use-cases?</p>

    <p class='phone'>there is some work i emailed round from a chap
    from cambridge</p>

    <p class='phone'>which had some good examples of how privacy in
    the social web tends to look like</p>

    <p class='phone'>karl thinks that we should add some more user
    stories, so that we can get a feel for what the XG should be
    looking at</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; yes i will add a
    story</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I feel we are still
    missing some use-cases regarding businesses and developers</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i wanted to get
    privacy classes but no one answered my email</p>

    <p class='phone'>ah excellent point</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt; karl: we should take
    the current user stories and check them against the actual
    social networks such as frienfeed, facebook, etc.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt; then we can see if our
    cases make sense</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt; and then we can
    identify if there are missing ones.</p>

    <p class='phone'>i posted about this</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; great idea</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; I've got a
    developer story - I'll create an action for myself.</p>

    <p class='phone'>harry says that we should have a matrix</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; social network
    matrix</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; ACTION tinkster to
    document developer stories on wiki.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-19
    - Document developer stories on wiki. [on Toby Inkster - due
    2009-06-03].</p>

    <p class='phone'>showing how social networks uphold privacy</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>caribou</cite>&gt; almost all the user
    stories that we have are related to privacy/data
    protection</p><a name="action07" id="action07"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> karl to create the matix to be filled
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action07</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-20
    - Create the matix to be filled [on Karl Dubost - due
    2009-06-03].</p>

    <p class='phone'>we have developed at garlik</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; can someone help me
    find classes of privacy</p>

    <p class='phone'>but it is for government institutions</p>

    <p class='phone'>about what they do with your data</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; mischa - could we
    expland the matrix to deal with commercial social networks?</p>

    <p class='phone'>i could put to a similar oen for social
    networking sites</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Maybe we could look
    through alexa to get out the top social networking sites.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I can do
    that...</p>

    <p class='phone'>karl says that he will put up a matrix based
    on the current user stories</p><a name="action08" id=
    "action08"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> To retrieve top X social networking
    sites from the top 500 sites of Alexa [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action08">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action08</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
    find user - To</p><a name="action09" id="action09"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to retrieve top X social
    networking sites from the top 500 sites of Alexa [recorded in
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action09">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action09</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-21
    - Retrieve top X social networking sites from the top 500 sites
    of Alexa [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-06-03].</p>

    <p class='phone'>so that people can look at each individual
    social networking sites</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; Karl, what criteria
    do you want for this list?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; the "top" social
    networks?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt; cperey, Alexa
    traffic</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; irrelevant</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; for mobile</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_networking_websites">
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_networking_websites</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt; cperey, what would be
    your criteria? :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; how could we get
    the top X social networking sites for mobile?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; Number of unique
    users per month</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; is that list
    available anywhere?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; more relevant for
    all types of social networks</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_networking_websites">
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_networking_websites</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I have a list (not
    published)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; wouldnt you just
    select out of the top 500 alexa sites?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I thin that list on
    wikipedia uses the company's own data, right?</p>

    <p class='phone'>there has been some work from cambridge</p>

    <p class='phone'>were they looked into</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt; I will do Mixi (social
    network in Japan) because I have an account and they don't open
    account to people outside Japan</p>

    <p class='phone'>social networking sites</p>

    <p class='phone'>T&amp;Cs</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8060407.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8060407.stm</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>i would like to invite the phd student which
    did the work</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; this is a metrics
    question</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; humming is back</p>

    <p class='phone'>looking for the persons link</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I'm happy to go
    through alexa if someone else will merge it with wikipedia and
    Christine's list</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; how do you measure a
    social network</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; this is returning
    to the metric question</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; OK</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt; +1 for merging</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1 merging</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 merging</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; 30-50 social
    networks</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; yes that sounds
    reasonable</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; So we merge list
    from alexa\wikipedia with Christine's list?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; by country?
    worldwide?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; worldwide</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I would assume
    world-wide at first, and then later we can break it down by
    country</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> asked if we could merge
    christine's list with the alexa rankign and the wikipedia list
    so as to pick 30 social networking sites</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; unless your data is
    already broken down by country Christine</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I can work with
    Harry on this</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; zakim unmute me</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~jra40/publications/">http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~jra40/publications/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; I would suggest
    you also need IM based networks such as Skype, GTalk, XMPP, if
    they are not included already, as they have significant usage
    and maturity</p>

    <p class='phone'>cperey's data is broken down by country</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cperey:</cite> on/deck and business
    models.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; 30 or 50?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Start with 30 and
    then build if needed?</p>

    <p class='phone'>cperey would be happy with 30</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>adam</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cperey:</cite> will make a list of the
    last 30</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; top based on number
    of users?</p>

    <p class='phone'>i would like us to check their Terms and
    Conditions</p>

    <p class='phone'>and see if they actually abide by
    it</p><a name="action10" id="action10"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> cperey to make list of top 30 to do
    profiles on, to merge with hhalpin's list on alexa [recorded in
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action10">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action10</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-22
    - Make list of top 30 to do profiles on, to merge with
    hhalpin's list on alexa [on Christine Perey - due
    2009-06-03].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt; I'll have to find
    someone for <a href=
    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2channel">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2channel</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; Christine, do you
    list mobile access as a feature too?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; we do it as more of
    long-term action</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cperey:</cite> data has information
    regarding social networking sites, and their features</p>

    <p class='phone'>not terms and conditions</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; does your list have
    the feature?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; feature-criteria
    like instant-messaging, and all of that?</p>

    <p class='phone'>all of the social networking sites on
    christine's list are mobile centric</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; cperey:
    "PC-centric" vs. "mobile-centric" and then a continuum
    inbetween.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>karl</cite>&gt; what is a mobile
    access? specific software for mobile devices?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; my cell does the same
    things as my PC</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; sounds good to
    me</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cperey:</cite> will get her
    mobile-centric list and we should look at it</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; yes rreck, but some
    sites don't well with mobile phones if you don't have a
    gphone/iphone/other dataphone</p>

    <p class='phone'>and add an pc-centric social networkings site
    to the cperey's list</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; can we check to see
    if any of these sites take advantage of user-context, like
    geolocation from mobile phone?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Sounds great!</p>

    <p class='phone'>matrix of social networking site</p>

    <p class='phone'>and their features</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; where does this
    live?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; we should a
    manufacture a wiki page for the list</p>

    <p class='phone'>we need a wiki page for this list</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; yes, please</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; yes, I will fill
    in</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I need to sign off
    and go to another meeting, bye all</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; bye cperey</p>

    <p class='phone'>vcard and portability issues will have its own
    discussion after this call</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; any more comments
    before we move to vcard?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; such as things we
    are missing?</p>

    <p class='phone'>does anyone have any issues, there are lots of
    quiet people about?</p>

    <p class='phone'>have we looked over anything</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Dammit. My phone's
    gone dead.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Still on IRC
    though.</p>

    <p class='phone'>are we missing anything obvious ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; im not sure</p>

    <p class='phone'>this should be an ongoing process</p>

    <p class='phone'>if you think we are missing something</p>

    <h3 id="item06">Invited Guest Telecon: VCard in RDF</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; 6. Invited Guest
    Telecon: VCard in RDF</p>

    <p class='phone'>let the mailing list know</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; im trying to find
    classes of privacy and i cant be the first person to want
    them</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>rreck:</cite> look at this guys work
    <a href=
    "http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~jra40/publications/">http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~jra40/publications/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; One advantage of
    the vCard in RDF format (RDF Schema here) is it's use of RDF
    containers to allow complex vCard expressions. Should this be
    kept, and if so, how? Which ones, rdf:bag, rdf:Alt, rdf:Seq?
    How about its use of sub-structure?</p>

    <p class='phone'>I have to leave this call, it is 3</p>

    <p class='phone'>:(</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf">http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; mischat: ty</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; That's the older
    vCard in RDF format</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Aren't
    rdf:Bag/rdf:Alt/rdf:Seq generally seen as poor cousins of
    rdf:List these days?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; I have to leave too,
    bye</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; 1) No use of
    containers in vCard at all</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; 2) Using *only*
    rdf:List</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; why isnt rdf:bag
    enough</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; If the order of
    items is important, use rdf:List, otherwise don't use a
    container at all.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; 3) Letting it all
    be a free for all.</p>

    <p class='phone'>i have to leave this chat now :(</p>

    <p class='phone'>i am sorry</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Someone else can
    scribe?</p>

    <p class='phone'>right i am sorry i am off now, you are less a
    scribe now</p>

    <p class='phone'>bye all</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; is there use for
    RDF containers?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: vCard is
    99 percent hCard</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; Really? Surely there
    are gobs of vcards out there never rendered in HTML at all</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: vCard in
    RDF is fairly minimal</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: Lots of
    hCard - between 1-2 billion URLs</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Can you share the
    stats on the usage of the attribute?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; hhalpin: But 98%
    of those 1-2 billion URLs are presumably on a handful of domain
    names. Just a few script tweaks could change everything.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; should we merge or
    not do data-typring?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; so for complex
    structure is the older version better?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; do we need or/want
    to substructure?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I thin Renato had
    some concern for the subset that wasn't hCard.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; sorry i have to
    leave now, sorry, see you.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; And there was a big
    argument over round-tripping in SWIG a while back...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; timbl: I use this
    for modelling my addresses</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; timbl: these are
    proper vCards</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; timbl: but I can
    see working with well-defined subset, but would like
    round-tripping in this subset</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; There are some
    parts of vCard which are pretty useless.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; timbl: made contact
    ontology</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; norm: we should
    stick faithfully to vCard spec</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Here is some of the
    structuring I think:</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; &lt;vCard:EMAIL
    rdf:parseType="Resource"&gt; &lt;rdf:value&gt; corky@qqqfoo.com
    &lt;/rdf:value&gt; &lt;rdf:type rdf:resource="<a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0#internet">http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0#internet</a>"/&gt;</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; More precisely: I said
    that if we claim to model vCard, we should model it. If not, we
    shouldn't claim to be modeling it.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; You CAN do that
    with the newer hCard</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; The CLASS property
    is useless.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; It's just it's a
    bit confusing because we then use v:EMAIL as a subject, not a
    predicate</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; but we can type
    predicates</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; this I think leads
    to problems with OWL-DL.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; MAILER is pretty
    useless too.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; But I'm OK with
    that.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; (And has been
    removed in latest drafts.)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; CLASS was for what
    groups it is in?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; CLASS has three
    allowed values: PRIVATE, CONFIDENTIAL and PUBLIC.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; You don't need a bifg
    process to make a note obsolete, i think -- jsut change the
    Status Of This Document.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; no process
    issue?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; no process issue.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; So, then we can
    just merge it with Renato's?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; So, no process</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I would like to NOT
    have more than one URI for vCard</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; The two are these:</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf">http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns">http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Then I would like
    to put the SIMPLE stuff up front in Renato's, and put more
    difficult things involving data-structuring and rdf:List
    towards the end of the spec</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; There's also a
    silly difference in capitalization</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I prefer
    lower-case</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Newer URI comes up
    #1 on Google for me, searching "vcard rdf".</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; (without
    quotes)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Norm's
    spec==namespace URI.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I prefer having
    spec URI == namespace URI and then use conneg</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Rennato's
    namespace = <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0">http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0</a>#</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I mean, one
    option</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I mean one option
    is that we re-use Renato's URI, then use as the namespace URI
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns.">http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns.</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; And if one requests
    "text/html" for <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns">http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; +1 to timbl's
    suggestion of marking old one as obsolete and recommending
    new.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; That's the issue
    with TR.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; hCard GRDDL
    profile &lt;<a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard%3E">http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard&gt;</a>
    uses 2006 namespace.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Well, Norm, I think
    this is at least part of the community.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; Fair enough</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; What is way forward
    here?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; +1 to just an
    "obsolete" note, as long as it's clear.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; Proposed
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Harry to check with Renato he is OK
    with:</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ivan</cite>&gt; action on harry:
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf">http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf</a>
    would refer to the new version, there will be a 'previous
    version' link to the current one</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
    find user - on</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; ACTION hhalpin to
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf">http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf</a>
    would refer to the new version, there will be a 'previous
    version' link to the current one</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-23
    - Http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf would refer to the new
    version, there will be a 'previous version' link to the current
    one [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-06-03].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; that works for me
    and I think Renato will agree with it.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; ... <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf">http://www.w3.org/TR/vcard-rdf</a>
    would be kept as the "latest-version" URI, and Reanto's veion
    woul dbe linke dfrom the new one as a "previous version".</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I guess the other
    question is we keep the "2006" namespace?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0">http://www.w3.org/2001/vcard-rdf/3.0</a>#</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; My vote: keep both
    namespaces but only recommend 2006.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; That is Renato's
    namespace URI.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Ivan: suggests
    namespace URIs that tend to use version causes version</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Ivan: So let's use
    "2006"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; I agree that it is
    unwise to use a version number in the URI</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; The year has no
    semantics</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; It's based on
    vCard 3.0.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I am also a bit
    against years in URIs, but that's a minority opinion.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; But you can use
    /ns/vcard if you want</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Ivan: would prefer
    to vCard</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: I would
    agree with "2006"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; or /ns/pim/adr</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; For the time being
    let's use "2006"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Doesn't that just
    create yet another URI to include in SPARQL queries, etc?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; We already have
    one too many.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; Ok, so keep the same
    2006 ns</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ivan</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns">http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: keep
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns">http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ns</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; The vCard ontology
    needs examples. At least one that explains you can attach the
    properties to URIs for people, not just cards!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; we need a list of
    examples</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; from
    experience.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika:
    Transforming hCard into RDF</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: vCard
    represents both a person and organization</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: hCard is
    value of organization and fn are the same, the hCard is
    actually representing an organization and not a person</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; That is not RDF</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: The
    equivalent properties determine type of object</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; So the hcrad &gt;
    vcard mapping has to do some mapping</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: so
    address and whatnot can all apply to person</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: AND
    organization</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: Does
    person have vCard etc.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: And then
    the vCard have an address etc.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: These
    are two main points people struggle with</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; TimBL: The last one
    is the major one.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; TimBL: Are we
    modeling a file or person</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: The
    documentation leads this question open</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I'm noting
    unclarity about this is WHY there's no examples :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I could not
    consensus on this.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; I agree that one
    should moddl the person not the card.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; Like you model a
    book, not a library card.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>adam</cite>&gt; yes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; toby: 4.0 includes
    a property "kind" that demarcates between people organization
    and group</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 vCard 4.0</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; timbl: which would
    be a functional mapping to a RDF class</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; toby: individual or
    pre-defined group or organization</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; toby: also maybe
    one for "place"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; Those shoudl
    defintely map to classses.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; how stable is vCard
    4.0?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Should we track
    it?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Not especially
    stable.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; yes, certainly -
    should be able to attach these to Person/Organisation URIs.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ivan: hhalpin said
    having the same person with several vCard is an edge-case</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ivan: since I have
    two addresses</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ivan: so in my
    phone I have two entries for my name</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; I think vCard 4.0
    drafts have ways of representing multiple sets of contact
    information in one card.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I am liking vCard
    4.0 :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; e.g. this phone,
    this fax and this address are for one set of uses; and this
    phone and this address are for another.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; I've not really
    studied that part of the syntax though.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; timbl: so you'll
    miss the fact that these two vCards are not the same in
    RDF.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>uldis</cite>&gt; a person may have
    different vCards which they "give" to people same as one may
    have different versions of a business card</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; timbl: about the
    same person</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; timbl: does this
    mean ontology is broken/</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ivan: vCard
    represents me or my address, I think it represents my
    address</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; timbl: we do not
    walk about what a vCard represents</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; [ a vcard:Vcard]
    vcard:sameOwnerAs [a vcard:Vcard ] .</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; (No, vCard doesn't
    have a sameOwnerAs property, but we could always define such a
    term.)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; so we don't drop
    the vCard class</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; we keep it and keep
    domains pretty open-ended</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; I think that's
    because the spec's a bit ambivalent norm</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; but in our examples
    we use People and Organizations</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; This would make it
    clear to users, since most users will just look at examples</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; timbl: we should be
    default not give it any class.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; should we add this
    to the GRDDL and the spec, this weird hCard algorithm?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; to determine people
    and organization?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pmika</cite>&gt; if fn=org =&gt;
    organization is not possible to express in OWL</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; so it should be in
    GRDDL?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Not express it in
    OWL, but *mention* it in RDF spec and then implement it in
    GRDDL.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pmika</cite>&gt; yes, it has to be in
    the hcard-to-rdf conversion</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; we should make a
    test case here</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; org class only has
    name and unit.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: So these
    properties should be extended to organization class</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: ALL
    properties can be extended to organization class</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: for
    example, "adr". Strictly, in vCard people have addresses,not
    organizations, but people use addresses directly on
    organizations in hCard.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt;
    contact:SocialEntity ~= foaf:Agent.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; orgname,
    orgunit</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; orgunit can be
    repeated.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; [ a v:vCard ; v:fn
    "Tim Berners-Lee" ; v:org [ a v:Organization ;
    v:organization-name "MIT" ; v:organization-unit "CISAL" ] ]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; is how it
    currently works.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; OK, am a bit
    confused.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Organisations are
    messy in vCard RDF because they're messy in vCard.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; org MIT unit CSAIL
    means memberOf [ a Unit; name "CSAIL"; partOf [ a Org; name
    "MIT"]]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; There are
    organisation properties which "hang off" people, plus the
    convention of fn==org whih means that the entire vCard
    represents an organisation.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: allow
    both, have examples for both cases</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; org MIT means
    memberOf [ a Org; name "MIT"]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: show an
    organization where the unit is not used, just give it name and
    some other properties.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: A case
    where the vCard is using to describe an organization</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; FOAF's model for
    people, orgs, membership is a lot more sensible.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; TimBL: You need to
    spot these patterns</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika: Yes, you
    need to do that in transform.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Perhaps we can add
    that to GRDDL.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; foaf:member</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Norm?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; Has FOAF got org is
    part of biggerOrg?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; skos:widerThan
    :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; no, but dublin
    core has "hasPart/isPartOf"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; foaf:Organization</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; I wonder whether a
    gorup is a SocialEntity</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; don;t see any
    properties tho</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AlexPassant</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_Organization">http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/#term_Organization</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; "This is a more
    'solid' class than foaf:Group, which allows for more ad-hoc
    collections of individuals. These terms, like the corresponding
    natural language concepts, have some overlap, but different
    emphasis. "</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ok</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; not sure if there's
    any formal subclassing</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; probaby not</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; Maybe socialEntity
    should be explicitly allowed to incldeu a group.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; of group, that is</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AlexPassant</cite>&gt; may be used
    together with foaf:member ? (":csail foaf:member :mit")</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; not very clear</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; AlexPassant: not
    sure of :csail foaf:member :mit.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; Good Q Alex</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>uldis</cite>&gt; re. earlier mention
    of SIOC - for representing organisations FOAF would be more
    appropriate that SIOC</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pmika</cite>&gt; there is no
    equivalent of organization-unit in FOAF and I would not be in
    favor of bringing in a single FOAF class into the VCard
    spec</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; :microsoft
    foaf:member :w3c .</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; FAOF more appropraite
    thatn SIOC?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Re FOAF and VCard,
    I think we first fix vCard RDF spec, because that's relatively
    easy, and then see what the future of FOAF is in the next
    telecon.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; sounds good</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AlexPassant</cite>&gt; previous thread
    on foaf:Group / foaf:Organisation <a href=
    "http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2007-January/008396.html">
    http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2007-January/008396.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; Good luck to all! See
    you on the next telcon</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ivan</cite>&gt; thanks to norm</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; cheers
    AlexPassant</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; did you get a
    response? doesn't look like it AlexPassant</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>libby</cite>&gt; perhaps bump the
    thread?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AlexPassant</cite>&gt; libby:
    unfortunately, no answer - I sent a similar one a year later
    but no answer as well</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; republish it for
    next week?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Formal note, it's
    an IG note, not a SWXG note.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; XGs can't do Notes
    even :)e</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; send us
    examples</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PeterMika will
    examples.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Meeting
    adjourned</p>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> adam to find a
  good final report template and port it to the wiki [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> AlexPassant to
  see about SIOC liason [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> cperey to add
  mobile companies to to Invited Guests and to brainstorm what
  exact questions or topics would be most interesting [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action06</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> cperey to make
  list of top 30 to do profiles on, to merge with hhalpin's list on
  alexa [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action10">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action10</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to
  retrieve top X social networking sites from the top 500 sites of
  Alexa [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action09">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action09</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> karl to create
  the matix to be filled [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action07</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> tinkster to draft
  wiki pages for task forces [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> To retrieve top X
  social networking sites from the top 500 sites of Alexa [recorded
  in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action08">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action08</a>]<br />

  &nbsp;<br />

  <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong>danbri to find someone from Opera to talk Widgets<br />

  &nbsp;<br />

  <strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> danbri sketch a
  5 line template for interaction with other groups (cf
  InvitedExperts, DiscussionTopics) [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />

  <strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> karl to produce
  a template for TF deliverables. [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/27-swxg-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />


  <strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> AlexPassant to create a liasons list on the Wiki and list himself for SPARQL.<br />


  <strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin and danbri to invite guest speakers and investigate their schedule. <br />

  <strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong>danbri to document throwaway IDs on Wiki <br />

  <strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong>oshani to document takedowns as a user story <br />


  &nbsp;<br />
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
    $Date: 2009/05/27 16:34:14 $
  </address>

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