18-tagmem-minutes 67.2 KB

Raw Blame History Permalink

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">

<html lang='en' xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">
<head>
  <meta name="generator" content=
  "HTML Tidy for Mac OS X (vers 1st December 2004), see www.w3.org" />

  <title>TAG Southampton Meeting, Day 2 -- 18 Sep 2007</title>
  <link type="text/css" rel="STYLESHEET" href=
  "http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/base.css" />
  <link type="text/css" rel="STYLESHEET" href=
  "http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/public.css" />
  <link type="text/css" rel="STYLESHEET" href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2004/02/minutes-style.css" />
  <meta content="TAG Southampton Meeting, Day 2" name="Title" />
  <meta content="text/html; charset=us-ascii" http-equiv=
  "Content-Type" />
</head>

<body>
  <p><a href="http://www.w3.org/"><img src=
  "http://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home" alt="W3C" border="0" height=
  "48" width="72" /></a></p>

  <h1>- DRAFT -</h1>

  <h1>TAG Southampton Meeting, Day 2</h1>

  <h2>18 Sep 2007</h2>

  <p><a href=
  'http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda'>Agenda</a></p>

  <p>See also: <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2007/09/18-tagmem-irc">IRC log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd>Stuart_Williams, Noah_Mendelsohn, Tim_Berners-Lee*,
      Norm_Walsh, Henry_S._Thompson, Dan_Connolly, Rhys_Lewis,
      Dave_Orchard*, TV_Raman*</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dd>Tim_Berners-Lee*, Dave_Orchard*, TV_Raman*</dd>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>Stuart Williams</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>Rhys, Norm</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">TAG Planning and Review</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item02">URNsAndRegistries-50
        (ISSUE-50)</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item03">xmlFunctions-34 (ISSUE-34)</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item04">namespaceDocument-8
        (ISSUE-8)</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item05">Web 2.0 and Web Architecture (and TAG
        Blog mechanics)</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item06">Agenda review for the
        afternoon</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item07">reviewing the Cool URIs document
        (ISSUE-57 cont.)</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item08">XMLVersioning-41 (ISSUE-41
        cont)</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item09">TagSoupIntegration-54
        (ISSUE-54)</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item10">Thanks to the host</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">
    <p class='phone'>&#160;</p>

    <p class='phone'>&#160;</p>

    <h3 id="item01">TAG Planning and Review</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Rhys</cite>&gt; Scribe: Rhys</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; Scribenick: Rhys</p>

    <p class='phone'>discussion of TAG goals and directions</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Anything particular to report
    to the November W3C membership meeting?</p>

    <p class='phone'>discussion roams over maintenance of webarch
    vol1, a 2nd vol, security, p2p, web 2.0, ...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> OpenAjax Alliance could be a
    good place to start. The major players in Ajax libraries are
    members</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2007/06/mobile-ajax/">http://www.w3.org/2007/06/mobile-ajax/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>Discussion about what TAG might do for the
    workshop.</p>

    <p class='phone'>TimBL edits an outline (@@copy/link)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I think I'd be tempted to
    draft the new document and then you could choose to move that
    to modifications to the existing AWWW.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Better to say that there is a
    set of things on which we are working, and then decide where
    the changes live</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Can see working on volume 2
    leading to errata for volume 1<br />
    ... Asks how much of the list that Tim has produced could be
    shared with the AC<br />
    ... Wraps up by asking if people are ok with use of tracker?
    General feeling is positive.</p>

    <h3 id="item02">URNsAndRegistries-50 (ISSUE-50)</h3><a name=
    "action01" id="action01"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[DONE]</strong> David Orchard
    to explore the space of external registries and to post to the
    tag member list. ACTION-32 [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action01">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p><a name="action02"
    id="action02"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Henry S. Thompson to revise
    URNsAndRegistries-50 finding in response to F2F discussion
    <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action02">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>

    <p class='phone'>HT Looks at diary to try and get an estimate
    for a date. End of October. Stuart updates the action due
    date.</p>

    <h3 id="item03">xmlFunctions-34 (ISSUE-34)</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Same date for Action 26 which
    is part of issue 34. Stuart updates the action due
    date</p><a name="action03" id="action03"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Henry S. Thompson to Henry to prepare
    new draft of xmlFunctions-34 ACTION-26
    <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action03">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Any discussion necessary
    here?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> No. I have the notes on what
    I want to write.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> points out that the GRDDL
    specification (<a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/)">http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/)</a>
    references TAG issues 8 and 34.<br />
    ... The GRDDL spec postponed decision related to
    xmlFunctions-34<br />
    ... I was wondering about urgency around these two issues. Now
    that GRDDL is a rec, the urgency for that group has gone, but
    the implementers will still be interested.</p>

    <h3 id="item04">namespaceDocument-8 (ISSUE-8)</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/XML/2007/09/XMLSchema.html">http://www.w3.org/XML/2007/09/XMLSchema.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Projects the above
    document</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> This is the draft namespace
    document for XML Schema.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Projects the source,</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Points out the &lt;head
    profile=.... which is the incantation that marks the document
    as GRDDL enabled. The &lt;link rel='transformation... together
    with the profile attribute identifies the transformation to be
    applied for GRDDL</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/XML/2007/09/xsd.owl">http://www.w3.org/XML/2007/09/xsd.owl</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> The stylesheet runs when you
    want to extract the RDF from the document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Projects <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/XML/2007/09/xsd.owl">http://www.w3.org/XML/2007/09/xsd.owl</a>
    , which is the RDF from the namespace document</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Describes the resulting RDF,
    which he anticipates that DC and TBL probably won't like.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Opens the tabulator</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Describes the appearance of
    the OWL in the tabulator<br />
    ... Datatype includes the list of XML Schema datatypes. This
    was one of the things that DC wanted to see in the RDF
    generated from the namespace document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> So is the transformation
    stylesheet generic or specific to this namespace document?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> It's mainly generic with some
    specific parts for the schema datatypes<br />
    ... Based this on Norm's work, but changed it.<br />
    ... Explains the approach in the RDF. Shows use of RDDL
    validation 'purpose'</p><a name="action04" id="action04"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> HenryS to fix .htaccess in 2007/09 so
    that .owl files get the right mime type [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action04">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Describes the natureKey and
    target properties and their relationship<br />
    ... Invites Tim and Dan to look at the three documents which
    embody a proposal for how to use RDDL with namespace
    documents</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#boolean">http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#boolean</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/XML/2007/09/XMLSchema.html#boolean">http://www.w3.org/XML/2007/09/XMLSchema.html#boolean</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> When the document is
    installed then URIs of the form above will be available to the
    Tabulator.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Let me put in English what I
    think is happening. In this case, the spirit of what you are
    doing is that we had a problem with RDDL natures and purposes
    where the URIs seemed to be of the wrong class. This approach
    is not implementing an inverse functional property.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> It's not an inverse
    functional relationship, because the same relationship might
    apply between multiple objects</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> The relationship is between
    three things.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> One triple isn't enough.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Feels right about the
    relationships involved. It looks rigorous. But if any normal
    user has to do all of this then it looks a problem.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> They don't have to. This will
    all be part of RDDL.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Ok, so this is now grounded
    in RDF. I want to add this to some other RDF that I'm creating.
    Are they going to be able to use this?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Yes.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> Does this shape of model
    address the issue about using DTDs and Schemas as natures?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> As one of those people, I'm
    happy that this addresses that.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> We need to talk about the URI
    in the type of the namespace.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; "This type of
    information resource is called a namespace document. " --
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#namespace-document">http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#namespace-document</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Should be calling it
    NamespaceDocument, not Namespace<br />
    ... We should be getting it via a 303</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; "Another benefit
    of using URIs to build XML namespaces is that the namespace URI
    can be used to identify an information resource that contains
    useful information, machine-usable and/or human-usable, about
    terms in the namespace. This type of information resource is
    called a namespace document. "</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Disagrees</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> What would be the use of
    introducing a new concept like 303 for the namespace
    document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I don't necessarily agree
    that all information resources are documents. The term
    namespaces was introduced by XML. The namespace documents are
    whatever that namespace defines them to be.<br />
    ... I see those documents as information resources. A namespace
    means you have a URI, and whoever owns it gets to say what is
    defined and what is not</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; Here is the finding
    where the TAG defines what a namespace is: <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/namespaceState.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/namespaceState.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (no. the namespace
    document is not a representation of the resource in question;
    it _is_ the resource in question. "This type of information
    resource is called a namespace document. " )</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I think that can be
    transferred in a message. I view the namespace document as a
    representation of the resource that is identified as the
    namespace URI</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; HST's position:
    Namespaces are ineffable, identified by namespace URI,
    namespace documents have information about them, 303 is
    appropriate</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> that does justify the 200
    return code rather than 303 on access to the namespace URI</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; TBL's position:
    Namespaces and namespace documents can usefully share a URI, so
    200 is appropriate</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; NM's position:
    Namespaces are information resources, of which namespace
    documents are representations, so 200 is appropriate</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I think there is a clash of
    cultures from two communities. I can live with the story that
    Noah has told of there being a representation of the namespace
    that is returned on access.<br />
    ... I think the semweb community does actually use two URIs,
    one with a trailing # and one without. One identifies the
    namespace, the other allows me to retrieve a
    representation.<br />
    ... The XML community doesn't use the trailing # and so has
    only one to identify the namespace. To identify the document,
    there would have to be another, perhaps unrelated, URI</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> It's true that the URIs with
    the # exist, but I've never found that I actually had to write
    statements about the URI with the #<br />
    ... Which is why I asked Henry the question about this extra
    node in the RDF</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> It's because it is the
    namespace that is the subject of these statements, not the
    namespace document.#</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Sometimes the subject of a
    normative reference is a datatype, sometimes, in this RDF</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> That's right.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; Norm, you wanted to
    ask what the URI of the XML Schema namespace *is* if the
    putative URI is a URI for the XML Namespace Document</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> If XML schema is the URI of
    the namespace document, then what is the URI of the namespace?
    Think this has been overtaken by Stuart's comment</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Think that what the XML
    community thinks of as the URI of the namespace is actually the
    URI of the namespace document</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> There is definitely one
    resource, which is the namespace, and may return a
    representation. But there is nothing that precludes us from
    creating a second URI for the document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> The RDF community has never
    really concerned itself with namespaces. You could make
    assertions about them, but in practice it doesn't happen.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> TAG has published documents
    that discuss namespaces and properties of namespaces and we
    have to build a story about that.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (where does
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/namespaceState.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/namespaceState.html</a>
    say anything about namespaces? it says things about names in a
    namespace)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; DanC_lap, you wanted
    to note that this { &lt;XMLSchema&gt; rdf:type xml:Namespace }
    invites unending philosophical discussion and doesn't seem to
    be necessary to address</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; If we think that
    hashless URIs are for documents, we need to use 303 for the
    ones that we use as namespaces and we have to encourage XML
    authors to use hashed URIs. Maybe.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> The impasse we're stuck in
    would go away if we deleted the rdf:type</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> If we do decide to do that,
    we could close this issue. But I think it will bite us in
    future and we should probably open a new issue to cover
    this</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; HT: Right, we've
    addressed the requirements we came in to this with w/o the
    rdf:type, so I can live with dropping it</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> What would that issue
    cover?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> The question is what do XML
    namespace URIs, as used in the existing web of XML, identify.
    What kinds of things are they?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (we've "run into
    the sand" in that we have 2 coherent positions, neither has
    convinced the other, and no new information seems to be
    forthcoming)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab">http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab?uri=http://www.w3.org/XML/2007/09/xsd.owl">
    http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/tab?uri=http://www.w3.org/XML/2007/09/xsd.owl</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; That it is reasonable
    (indeed recommended) to serve something in response to a GET on
    a namespace URI is uncontested</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; But until we can say
    whether the resource identified by a (traditional/OF XML)
    namespace URI is an information resource or not, we don't know
    whether or not to reply with a 200 or a 303</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> The later version of the
    tabulator (see above URI) infers information from the HTTP
    headers, including the response code.<br />
    ... This inference of the result being a document is from the
    TAG finding. (document is a pun for information resource in
    this case)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I think that I heard Henry
    and Norm take an action to produce a new draft of the
    finding</p><a name="action05" id="action05"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Norm to produce a new draft of the
    namespace documents finding based on 18 Sep discussion
    (@@trackbot got it?) [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action05">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot-ng</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
    find user - Norm</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; trackbot-ng,
    status</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; Rhys, try
    Norman</p>

    <p class='phone'>Note to scribe to fix up the action to be
    against Norm</p>

    <p class='phone'>Issue is Self-Describing Web</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I have a set of comments
    against the last draft. Have double checked with Tim about
    interest in a new draft. So lets continue the action. I feel
    that I know what to do.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (this relates to
    URI-based extensibility and standardizedFieldValues-51 )</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> How about aiming for a draft
    in time for tech plenary week. How about November 2nd?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; ht, you wanted to
    point to <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/namespaceState.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/namespaceState.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Observes that there is an
    overlap with URI-based extensibility and would that be
    something for TP panel?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Could be appropriate. Bug me
    for slides if you want them.<br />
    ... Should we go through the webarch presentation over
    lunch?</p>

    <p class='phone'>[break for lunch]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; ScribeNick: Norm</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; Scribe: Norm</p>

    <h3 id="item05">Web 2.0 and Web Architecture (and TAG Blog
    mechanics)</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> At Google, we said this was a
    place where we'd like to do somethinking, but we haven't really
    bitten into it at all.<br />
    ... One of the questions for me is, when you have the
    client-side scripting stuff, the representations behave
    differently becauase they actually interact back with the
    servers<br />
    ... Application interaction, not just animation and
    forms.<br />
    ... There are questions about web architecture, bookmarking;
    we've had a bit of a thread about fragement identifiers and
    scripting.<br />
    ... Are there other factors of web 2.0 that might be stressing
    the architecture as we have writ it.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> I'd like to add the
    cross-domain scripting issue. I don't even know what's
    happening in the relevant constituencies.<br />
    ... TimBL describe some work, we should check on that.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Is that the access control
    proposal?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Yes, that's it.</p>

    <p class='phone'>The "public:" HTTP header</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Is this stuff covered by
    webarch? Yes, sort of. Some parts get relearned, like when to
    use GET<br />
    ... One of the episodes was the google accelerator which would
    follow GET links so if they did deletes, that was an
    issue.<br />
    ... It seems like people are paying a lot of attention to the
    URI space that they're using and when to use GET/POST.<br />
    ... Sometimes it's nice if the folks using your work know about
    it so they read it.<br />
    ... What's starting to get deployed that isn't described by
    specs is the fragment identifers that don't mean anything if
    the javascript isn't there.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> When you first go to Google
    Maps, it appears to violate the principle that things should
    have URIs. But if you look closely, you can get it.<br />
    ... But there are issues there about how many other
    implementors would have taken the care to do that.<br />
    ... Obviously there must be issues with keeping the address bar
    constantly up-to-date.<br />
    ... Is anyone drilling on that?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> The OpenAJAX folks.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> No, I mean on our side. It
    can be very seductive to give a URI to the beginning.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Oh, right, it used to be free
    and now it isn't.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> And it might be quite
    difficult.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> We might want to explore what
    states do benefit from having a URI?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Yes, but I think if we went
    to the OpenAjax folks, we could ask of the library
    implementors, how easy do you make it for your users to get
    URIs?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt;
    (priority[tag_blog]++ )</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Once users are getting value
    out of something, it tends to persist. But they need to know
    that there's something there. A link to a map instead of a PDF
    of the directions.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; FYI... WAF-WG WD on
    "Enabling Read Access for Web Resources" is at <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/">http://www.w3.org/TR/access-control/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Another side of this issue is
    the economics of the situation. I think it's very interesting
    to look at the fact that Wikipedia works but lots fo things
    built out of MediaWiki don't. Why?<br />
    ... How much value do you have to give to how many people
    before something takes off?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> That's a web science sort of
    question, but not really a web architecture sort of
    question</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> I think Noah<br />
    ... Noah's question about Ajax libraries and URIs is a good
    one.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I'm still uncomfortable with
    the "Web 2.0" banner. I think they're all important. (Scribe
    may not have followed)<br />
    ... In carrying things under the Web 2.0 banner, we risk
    confusion.<br />
    ... Web 2.0: Rich Interaction, Web 2.0: something else</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I'd be just as happy to lose
    the Web 2.0 prefix in that case.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Maybe blogging is the right
    answer here.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Maybe, but one of our
    responsibilities is to liase with external organizations. My
    first question is, are they paying attention to the right
    issues.<br />
    ... If we find that they aren't, then we need to think about
    the right awy to preceed.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> It sounds like trawling
    through some of the libraries might be useful.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Or maybe just contacting the
    implementors and asking them.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> The mutterings of "blog"
    reminded me that we had an action on Tim wrt investigating URIs
    that we might use.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Ok, I talked to Dan and
    found some things out. All the /blog/ URIs use an
    infrastructure we don't want to use.<br />
    ... I don't want to go with /tag/blog, because it sets a bad
    precedent.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Do you want to propose a
    URI?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> /2001/tag/blog?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> There are certainly TAG
    members who object.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I think Raman objects on the
    grounds that remembering /2001/ is rude.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I forced /2001/tag/blog over
    Raman's objection. I ultimately became uncomfortable with that
    course of action.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I played a role in this,
    because I commented on the WBS form. I can say that anything
    that works for you guys works for me.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> There was /blog/tag that was
    a close second, but it has the infrastructure limitation.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Some discussion of the infrastructure
    issues</p>

    <p class='phone'>It would be nice to be able to migrate between
    blog engines.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Yes, but we don't have that
    problem.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> We could ask for /blog/tag
    and ask for it to be movable type.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Movable type is not a
    supported blog tool (by the W3C admin staff)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Do all of these give you
    moderately good control over styling?<br />
    ... I explored this with HTML and CSS.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Yes, I expect you can because
    it's popular.<br />
    ... Two intersting things about the Movable Type system are
    that (1) it would build the readership of the /qa blog that
    we're using for HTML, and (2) it uses the bake not fry model.
    GETs are just regular web pages. If the infrastructure falls
    over, the pages still stay there.<br />
    ... The downside is that you have to wait 15 minutes to see
    what it looks like.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Some discussion of that problem.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Maybe we should go with the
    supported stuff and if the blog falls over its their fault.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Word press?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> One of the issues was that
    community blogs with multiple authors was not directly
    supported by Word press. It could be a non-issue these days,
    but when the system team was picking, it was an issue.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Who cares what tool we
    use?</p>

    <p class='phone'>Several hands</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; timbl, you wanted to
    say we actually have also talked for example about web sites,
    which have no URIs in the architecture either. namespaces are
    similar</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; Norm, you wanted to
    say that if we decide that aa hashless URI must be the
    namespace *document* then the bit I said above</p>

    <p class='phone'>(NOTE FROM SCRIBE, SHOULD HAVE DRAINED QUEUE
    DIFFERENTLY)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I care a lot if it interferes
    with what it appearance.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I don't see how we're going
    to make a choice other than picking one and trying.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I've done some research and
    proposed Moveable Type.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I'm more than happy with
    that.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I was sort of hoping that I'd
    be able to just inject my atom entries into the TAG blog feed,
    not cut and paste. But I could live with cut and paste, I
    guess</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Here are the results of the
    survey I setup earlier.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34270/BlogURI/results">http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34270/BlogURI/results</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> By my reckoning /blog/tag
    wins.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I just don't know if it's
    feasible.</p><a name="action06" id="action06"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Dan to investigate the feasibility of
    having a Movable Type blog at /blog/tag [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action06">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action06</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot-ng</cite>&gt; Created
    ACTION-49 - Investigate the feasibility of having a Movable
    Type blog at /blog/tag [on Dan Connolly - due 2007-09-25].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> That was introduced by the
    notion of writing blogs in the Web 2.0 space, I think we can
    return there now.<br />
    ... TBL's action can now be marked as done.<br />
    ... So, DC, you think it might be more effective to write blogs
    in this area?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Yep.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I think it's worth a
    try.<br />
    ... I've been looking at Ajax; I might have a blog post in that
    space.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> I'm interested in that
    too</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> It's interesting that the
    lack of modularity in Javascript is a serious problem in
    projects like the Tabulator</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Oh! I have an almost finished
    blog post about that!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/projects/grddljs/raw-file/f51f4e01ea4b/devnotes.html">
    http://homer.w3.org/~connolly/projects/grddljs/raw-file/f51f4e01ea4b/devnotes.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>Some informal discussion of various aspect of
    Javascript</p>

    <p class='phone'>and Javascript programming. Implied global
    variables; code compression; compilation; etc.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Some discussion of the xmlHttpRequest spec and
    the state of the world wrt its examples</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> So this is a possible blog
    entry.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Yes.<br />
    ... One message is "lack of a module system" hurts.</p><a name=
    "action07" id="action07"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Rhys to investigate two AJAX libraries
    and see how well they support exposing URIs for intermediate
    results. [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action07">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action07</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot-ng</cite>&gt; Created
    ACTION-50 - Investigate two AJAX libraries and see how well
    they support exposing URIs for intermediate results. [on Rhys
    Lewis - due 2007-09-25].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; trackbot-ng,
    ACTION-50 is due in a month</p>

    <h3 id="item06">Agenda review for the afternoon</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> We'll work on TAG Soup after
    the break.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I'd like to come back to
    HTTP redirections.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Some discussion of the overlap between Rhys's
    HTTP range finding and the Cool URIs document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I think we should say that
    301 should always generate a warning<br />
    ... I think the purl.org folks use this.<br />
    ... And we should say that 302 should bookmark the *original*
    URI.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Some planning discussion for how to organize
    the rest of the day</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (hmm... yes, 301
    and 302 have this link updating meaning... it's less clear to
    me why that needs TAG attention; it's in the HTTP spec,
    no?)</p>

    <h3 id="item07">reviewing the Cool URIs document (ISSUE-57
    cont.)</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> Yesterday we were trying to
    get through the Cool URIs review which is a prerequisite for
    some of the other decisions</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html">
    https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>Continuing review at section 3. URIs for
    Real-World Objects</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I think the second sentence
    of the third paragraph should say "access" or "dereference" not
    "look up"</p>

    <p class='phone'>Some discussion of the colloquial use of "look
    up"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> If no one else is bothered by
    it, I won't press the point.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> We run into the definition
    of information resource in the last paragraph of section
    3.<br />
    ... Suppose you were to make a mistake here, then you'd use a
    URI for the resource and return a document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> The mistake is to have a URI
    for Alice and have it return 200.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> But what about the case of
    the bible; are they being clear enough about the distinction
    between a document and metadata about it?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> That doesn't make what's
    written there wrong, just incomplete.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; raman from the bus to
    work</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Suppose you always had two
    distinct resources?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> No, it says "not clearly and
    obviously a document"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I'm tempted here to push a
    bit on the distinction between "information resource" and
    "document"<br />
    ... There are things that I choose to believe are information
    resources that aren't documents.</p>

    <p class='phone'>TBL For instance?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt;
    ----------------------</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> For me, documents have a
    beginning a middle and an end.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; A relational
    table</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> For example, a relational
    table. The rows have no order in the database.<br />
    ... So it doesn't have a beginning, middle and end.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> What about a relational
    table in a CSV file?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> That's a specific
    serialization of the table.<br />
    ... The CSV file is a document. The point is that when you have
    DB2 or Oracle, the table isn't in general stored in anything
    that you could identify as serial or continuous.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> But a table is information,
    right?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> An RDF graph is another
    example. It's an information resource but not a document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> You slipped into the
    "representation" sense of document.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; Does a hypertext
    document that is a directory index truly have a beginning an
    end and a middle?</p>

    <p class='phone'>(Scribe may not have recorded the slip
    accurately)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> The reason that I'm
    re-raising this is because this says "if you have the least
    doubt that something is a document" then do something else
    (hash or 303).<br />
    ... If I believe a relational table, I think I should be able
    to return a 200.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> We agree about the
    information resource, but maybe not the document. Can you think
    of something that we might disagree is an information
    resource.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Can I try a few more.<br />
    ... An rdf:Class?<br />
    ... The integer 7.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> thumbs down; NM: thumbs
    up.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> A set of integers</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> thumbs down; NM: thumbs
    up.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> What about the set of numbers
    written in an HTML document?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> That's a borderline
    case.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> What about the set of
    integers that are the primes less than 30?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; given <a href=
    "http://examples.com/integers">http://examples.com/integers</a>
    how can you tell if I generated the integers or whether I wrote
    it in an html file?</p>

    <p class='phone'>Beats me, raman :-)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> A picture with random black
    and white pixels?<br />
    ... Yes, it's an information resource. It's not very
    useful.<br />
    ... If the thing has a name or has other properties attached to
    it, then it's definitely an information resource.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I think I could go with a set
    of numbers being an information resource but not an individual
    number.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I could believe *anything*
    can be an information resource, that it's not a meaningful
    distinction.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Is there a URI for each
    integer?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://example.com/integers#7">http://example.com/integers#7</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I'd have to think about that
    a little bit; I think you could do it with data: URIs.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> An observation: when you said
    relational table, TBL may have hard "data in the table, plus
    columns, and column names"</p>

    <p class='phone'>(Scribe notes: TBL left room to take a phone
    call)</p>

    <p class='phone'>Break for 15 minutes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; I think this
    distinction is a red herring and mostly bogus (this == document
    vs information resource) document is better thought of as a
    serialization of a resource</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; serialisation of a
    resource.... or it's current state?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; serialization of the
    current state of the resource</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; Yes dave... just
    about to dail in ourselves</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; zakim this will be
    tag</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; will call in like I
    did yesterday about 10 minutes before the hour. Still on the
    bus going to work</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; Raman said, 'I think
    this distinction is a red herring and mostly bogus (this ==
    document vs information resource) document is better thought of
    as a serialization of a resource"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; Ok... raman... we'll
    get going as best we can... Tim will likely depart 15min before
    the hour.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; will dial in at 14:50
    UTC 15:50 BST</p>

    <p class='phone'>Meeting resumes</p>

    <h3 id="item08">XMLVersioning-41 (ISSUE-41 cont)</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I posted some updates to the
    terminologies and strategies last night.<br />
    ... I made some of the edit's Tim suggested wrt language and
    extensions. We now require a mapping function of some
    kind.<br />
    ... The interesting corrolary is that languages like
    WS-Security aren't extensible.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (looking at
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-20070917.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-20070917.html</a>
    ... )</p>

    <p class='phone'>WS-Security mandates a fault if there's
    anything unrecognizable, so even though the schema has
    wildcards, it isn't extensible.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> I reworded other parts to
    reflect these changes.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> How do you feel we're
    doing?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I think we're making
    progress. I think maybe it would be OK if we never got to
    finishing the XML document and concentrated on the others.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> There was some feeling here
    that there'd be value in seeing stories about various
    strategies that have actually been deployed.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I've been using HTML as an
    example but it sounds like folks want more.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I think the strategies
    document with some stories added to help people understand is
    going to be more effective.<br />
    ... More effective than making it mathematically coherent. But
    the terminology document is useful to help make us
    understand.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> Stuart was moving us to
    having more examples in the terminology document as well.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I was thinking of small, toy
    languages to illustrate the various sets and other terms.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> That would be fine by me.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I was a little surprised at
    what Tim said because I thought a lot of the drift of the
    discussion yesterday was that we needed to connect teh strategy
    stuff to the terminology.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; Here's the sets
    with more examples on xml.com</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2006/12/20/a-theory-of-compatible-versions.html?page=1">
    http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2006/12/20/a-theory-of-compatible-versions.html?page=1</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> We don't want to intimidate
    novice readers, but some detail in the terminology could be
    used to build in strategies.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; Noah, you wanted to
    encourage tie to terminology</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Not putting it in people's
    faces I understand, but leaving them disconnected seems
    wrong.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Maybe the terms are two
    technical.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I still have some
    reservations about whether or not accept set and defined set
    are going to be useful terms.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; TBL: Don't use the
    terms differently i the two docs.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I agree that wouldn't be good
    in the strategies document.<br />
    ... I don't want to build up all that terminology if we aren't
    going to use it. We could kill it but I think that would be
    unfortuante.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Dave, do you have a top three
    messages you'd like to get out?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> "Make languages extensible"
    is the top one, but then there others that fall out of
    that.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> But what does extensible
    mean?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> Exactly</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I think you have to be
    careful that you don't wind up begging the question.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> So if someone says "how do I
    do that", do we have an answer/</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> We did have an answer for XML
    Schema about four years ago. But the pushback has generally
    been that we need to be more balanced in our treatment of
    versioning.<br />
    ... So we've made a more generalized document, but I've tried
    to collect all the non-XML related ones together in the
    forwards-compatibility section of the strategies
    document.<br />
    ... Forwards compatibility is 2.2.2, backwards compatibility is
    2.2.3, etc.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I'd like to give war stories
    from W3C specs. Not necessarily things that you were involved
    in.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> If examples need to be
    introduced to illustrate what we mean, I would have preferred
    to use an example language that's being created so that someone
    now would be able to follow the rules.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> What sticks with people is a
    horror story. You can point out that HTML grew because it had
    an extensibility story that worked. I wonder if something like
    CSS has had problems.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I can think of many XML
    languages that have had extensibility problems.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Can you think of something
    specific? Maybe something like the validator not taking
    extensibility into account.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> We could use XML 1.1 as our
    horror story.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> AS a failure. Yep, that
    works.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; :-)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> XML didn't follow many of the
    guidelines that were available in the forwards compatible
    section.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I think we need to step back
    a little, XML is extensible in many dimensions just not all of
    them.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> We would like to record our
    thanks to W3C for hosting last night's supper.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Our local hosts provided the
    transport, thanks to them too.</p>

    <p class='phone'>TBL departs.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> One thing this has provoked
    is that XML 1.0 and 1.1 is a poster child for versioning
    problems. But do we really think that the versioning finding is
    going to go into that much detail? If not, then I'm not sure
    there's value in showing failures.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> There are success
    stories.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> What about http? There's been
    a pretty good migration from 1.0 to 1.1, hasn't there?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I picked HTML not HTTP
    because is HTML is a W3C spec.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Some discussion of W3C involved in HTTP</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I was trying to pick a
    language format not a protocol, because the tradeoffs are
    different.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> The number of folks who know
    the HTML story well enough to follow are probably much greater
    than for HTTP. I withdraw the suggestion.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> So that'll make it into the
    terminology finding.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> That was supposed to really
    press the accept set/defined set. But I'm not sure it's usfule
    without a deep discussion.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Does anyone have a strong
    sense of how we make progress from where we are?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I got feedback to introduce
    more examples and on the terminology section.<br />
    ... There's work I can do, but I don't know if we would feel
    like we'd gotten measurably closer to being done with these
    documents, I don't know.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> If you think about where the
    end of the tunnel is, it's difficult to estimate where that is,
    partly because we've been at it so long.<br />
    ... You end up down in the document and not necessarily
    standing back to see if what we're doing is in support of the
    goals.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; stuck in traffic will
    be closer to the hour than not before I call in.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I'm not sure that "fix this"
    "fix this" "fix this" is going to wind up bringing us closer to
    completion.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> Yes. I wanted to tell a story
    more about XML versioning; now we've got a much broader story.
    I hope we don't expand it any further.<br />
    ... Some folks have been advocating for a cookbook
    approach.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> We've got three documents;
    one of the things that's bruising on all of us is the size. If
    we wanted to pick one piece, which would it be?<br />
    ... I would suggest the strategies document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I still think we're thrashing
    around. I don't think we've determined what success is. The
    documents should be in service to a goal.<br />
    ... Five to ten pages turns into weeks and months of TAG
    effort. So I think first of all, we should imagine that the
    final documents will be much smaller.<br />
    ... My feeling is there should be a small number of main points
    and it should be possible to enumerate them quickly and
    concisely.<br />
    ... For example, we give the community a small number of terms
    for usefully discussing the issues; show them how to make
    content is forwards-compatible; etc. Basically, get to the
    point where we can say here are our goals 1, 2, 3, 4...<br />
    ... Then write out a ToC and start to fill it in so that we
    know we're going to achieve those goals.<br />
    ... Get some agreement about the message and work on
    fullfilling that.<br />
    ... I think lots of people come to this with assumptions that
    they don't even know they have.<br />
    ... So I'd like to bring a little bit of rigor from the
    terminology and a few small problems.<br />
    ... In that sense, I think we should build up from zero,
    starting with the text Dave has already written.<br />
    ... That's my reaction to "pick a part".</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I'd be totally fine if we had
    a document that said "Versioning: Fowards Compatibility" and we
    just focused on that.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (hmm... reducing
    the scope to "Forward Compatibility" sounds interesting.)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> But this focussed approach
    sounds nice and is very hard to deliver on. Review tends to
    make the scope creep.<br />
    ... As soon as we say that we should have this particular
    focus, the yardsticks change and we end up pushing into
    different areas trying for complete coverage.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Dan says that reducing scope
    to fowards compatibilit sounds interesting</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Noah</cite>&gt; Forwards compat sounds
    just a bit narrow, but once you have it explained, is talking
    about backwards compat really much more than a para or two?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> One of the problems is that
    we're having a hard time concentrating on a piece of work small
    enough to accomplish consensus. The bigger it is, the harder it
    is to win consensus.<br />
    ... I think we need to wrap this little piece up before we move
    along.<br />
    ... Trying to follow up on what Noah is suggesting, I think
    that requires that we stand back a bit from the artifacts that
    we have and go back to the process of picking our messages.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Standing back in a sense; I
    think we'd go through the documents and try to summarize each
    section in a sentence or two and then try to prioritize
    that.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I could take a stab at that
    for the strategies document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I think we need to iterate
    over that as a group until we have consensus on the ToC.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I wonder if Dave could use a
    buddy for that to shorten the feedback loop</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I'd like to focus on things
    with a length of 1 sentence.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I don't think we can continue
    that exercise at this meeting.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (I think the
    Dave's done what somebody can do about page counts.)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I'd like to take a stab at
    reducing the strategies document down to something more
    focussed</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I think what Noah wanted was
    basically one or two sentences of meta-statement about each
    section. And work down from the top.<br />
    ... I'm hanging back on putting an action on Dave because I'm
    afraid it won't be successful.<br />
    ... Something coming back with a consensus of two would be an
    improvement, I think.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; target: ~3
    one-sentence points, touching on stories invoving HTML, XSLT,
    and XML 1.1</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> We've been changing the
    requirements.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I don't think they've ever
    been defined.</p><a name="action08" id="action08"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> David and Dan work together to
    articulate the versioning story that the TAG wants to tell.
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action08">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action08</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot-ng</cite>&gt; Created
    ACTION-51 - And Dan work together to articulate the story that
    the TAG wants to tell. [on David Orchard - due 2007-09-25].</p>

    <p class='phone'>trackbot-ng, action-51 due 2007-09-26</p>

    <h3 id="item09">TagSoupIntegration-54 (ISSUE-54)</h3>

    <p class='phone'>Review of agenda and actions</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> ACTION-7 was on Dan</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> That remains open; I got as
    far as trying to set it up and finding out that the
    intersection of available times was empty.<br />
    ... There's a corresponding thread in email; let's look
    there.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; Re: XML,
    namespaces, extensibility and validation Mark Nottingham
    (Wednesday, 5 September)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Sep/0012.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Sep/0012.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> One possibility is to
    prototype a new validator that can do new elements in a
    namespace using XSD<br />
    ... There's a little mail there; I'll continue to work on the
    action.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> New due date?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Check in a week.</p><a name=
    "action09" id="action09"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Dan Connolly to Work with Olivier and
    Tim to draft a position regarding extensibility of HTML and the
    role of the validator for consideration by the TAG ACTION-7
    <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action09">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action09</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (ideally,
    trackbot-ng would track the date of our next meeting, and
    "ACTION-7 continues" by default would set the due date to the
    date of the next meeting)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> ACTION-44 was on Dave; but
    Dave's not here.<br />
    ... What about the Tag Soup Integration topic list</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/tag-soup-integration">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/tag-soup-integration</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> We said we'd use it as a
    scratch pad to write down the ideas and issues that we have for
    discussion; it's not something I imagined that we'd
    publish.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> In terms of discussion today,
    is it a good guide?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> Seems fine to me.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I'd like to pick #3: XML or
    HTML serialization from View Source<br />
    ... Should new authors learn to put "/" in their br tags?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> YES!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Do you have any arguments I
    could use to convince others?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> The argument against using
    balanced tags and XML empty elements is about ease of
    authoring; but I don't think it works in the long run.</p>

    <p class='phone'>(DID THE SCRIBE GET THAT RIGHT?)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (yes, I agree it's
    more straightforward to teach HTML as XML; that's what I hear
    from educators.)</p>

    <p class='phone'>Scribe attempts to participate and fails to
    scribe or participate effectively</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> Because I have a parser
    that accepts some gunk, to use that as an excuse to encourage
    authors to write more gunk is bad</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> That's not their argument,
    their argument is that it's easier to teach HTML.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> Well, I don't believe
    that, but it's just a matter of opinion.<br />
    ... Time will tell.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> One task I'm looking for is
    someone to write a tutorial on how to write an HTML
    document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> That's going to vary
    depending on the biases of who you ask.<br />
    ... You can't claim that I didn't write HTML because I balanced
    my tags.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I guess some harm could be
    done, but at this point I'd like anything. I've got 43 authors
    interested and no one delivering.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> What about the authoring
    communities out there?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; Rhys, you wanted to
    say isn't ambiguity an issue for poorly written HTML?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> There are lots of them, but I
    can't get them to participate in the working group.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> Apart from the religious
    differences about which is easier, isn't there ambiguity in the
    tag soup case?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> The working hypothesis is
    that most of the ambiguity has gone away because the browsers
    have reverse engineered a lot of it.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Ian Hickson has written about
    the difference between the DOMs constructed which plays into
    the scripting problem.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> For 90% of the web, you can
    just use the html5lib code and it works.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Some wandering discussion of or respective
    recollections of history</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Rhys</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Postel">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Postel</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Rhys</cite>&gt; Appears in <a href=
    "http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc793">http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc793</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Rhys</cite>&gt; Interesting that the
    RFC quotes it as "TCP implementations will follow a general
    principle of robustness: be</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Rhys</cite>&gt; conservative in what
    you do, be liberal in what you accept from</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Rhys</cite>&gt; others."</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (<a href=
    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postel%27s_law">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postel%27s_law</a>
    <a href=
    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_Principle">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_Principle</a>
    )</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> Attribute quoting is not
    the problem.<br />
    ... If unquoted attributes were the only thing we had to open
    up to have clean markup, I'd accept that compromise
    today.<br />
    ... it's far far worse.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Worse how?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> The way scripting is bound
    to HTML is just not well defined.<br />
    ... Scripts that write HTML that includes scripts do this by
    writing partial tags and other things that no computer
    scientest would ever have accepted.<br />
    ... They didn't have a tree and now they need one</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> There are applications where
    you'd think that was out of scope<br />
    ... Link searching, for example</p>

    <p class='phone'>Raman/HT: No, that just doesn't work. Many,
    many links are constructed by script.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> There are things that
    people need to see and things that machines need to see. Lots
    of things are hidden behind scripting. Mostly for Google,
    people make sure the stuff they want indexed isn't hidden.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> This reminds me of the issues
    we discovered in the State finding about URIs hidden in
    cookies.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Raman:</cite> Cookies are the next
    level, that's state management. There's two layers: the shallow
    web and the deep web.<br />
    ... Over time, as the stuff not indexed by today's methods
    grows, something will have to change.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Dan, you started us down this
    route with a question about teaching HTML. Is there any
    conclusion?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I'm slightly more depressed
    than when we started; I learned a few things.</p>

    <h3 id="item10">Thanks to the host</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Rhys</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: thanks to
    Susan Davies for the organisation of this face to face
    meeting.</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Dan to
  investigate the feasibility of having a Movable Type blog at
  /blog/tag [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action06">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action06</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> David and Dan
  work together to articulate the versioning story that the TAG
  wants to tell. [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action08">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action08</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> HenryS to fix
  .htaccess in 2007/09 so that .owl files get the right mime type
  [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action04">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Norm to produce a
  new draft of the namespace documents finding based on 18 Sep
  discussion (@@trackbot got it?) [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action05">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Rhys to
  investigate two AJAX libraries and see how well they support
  exposing URIs for intermediate results. [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action07">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action07</a>]<br />

  &#160;<br />
  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Dan Connolly
  to Work with Olivier and Tim to draft a position regarding
  extensibility of HTML and the role of the validator for
  consideration by the TAG ACTION-7 [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action09">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action09</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Henry S.
  Thompson to Henry to prepare new draft of xmlFunctions-34
  ACTION-26 [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action03">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Henry S.
  Thompson to revise URNsAndRegistries-50 finding in response to
  F2F discussion [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action02">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />

  &#160;<br />
  <strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> David Orchard to
  explore the space of external registries and to post to the tag
  member list. ACTION-32 [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action01">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/18-tagmem-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />

  &#160;<br />
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> version 1.127 (<a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
    $Date: 2007/09/21 22:19:38 $
  </address>

  <div class="diagnostics"></div>
</body>
</html>