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  <title>TAG in Southampton, day 1 -- 17 Sep 2007</title>
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  <h1>- DRAFT -</h1>

  <h1>TAG in Southampton, day 1</h1>

  <h2>17 Sep 2007</h2>

  <p><a href=
  'http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda'>Agenda</a></p>

  <p>See also: <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2007/09/17-tagmem-irc">IRC log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd>Stuart_Williams, Noah_Mendelsohn, Tim_Berners-Lee,
      Norm_Walsh, Henry_S._Thompson, Dan_Connolly, Rhys_Lewis,
      David_Orchard*, TV_Raman*</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dd>David_Orchard*, TV_Raman*</dd>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>Stuart Williams</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>Henry S. Thompson, Noah Mendelsohn</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">Convene, take roll, review records
        and agenda</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item02">f2f planning</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item03">HttpRedirections-57, HTTPRange-14
        follow-up, review of "Cool URIs for the Semantic
        Web"</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item04">TagSoupIntegration-54: Distributed
        Extensibility</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item05">Face to Face Scheduling
        Revisited</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item06">XMLVersioning-41</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">
    <p class='phone'>&#160;</p>

    <p class='phone'>&#160;</p>

    <h3 id="item01">Convene, take roll, review records and
    agenda</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; Scribe: Henry S.
    Thompson</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; ScribeNick: ht</p>

    <p class='phone'>(Dave O, TVR to attend by 'phone late
    afternoons)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Scribe schedule: M p.m. NM; T
    a.m. RL, T p.m. NW; W a.m. DC</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/13-tagmem-minutes">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/13-tagmem-minutes</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: to
    approve minutes 13 Sep</strong></p>

    <h3 id="item02">f2f planning</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (I couldn't find a
    decision to meet in November when I looked, actually. I suppose
    it doesn't matter much.)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> We have an f2f booked for
    November, but no venue or date for the next one</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> DO has suggested Feb/Mar in
    Vancouver</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I am renewing a bid for
    Venice -- Massimo Marchiori would host</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Servolo">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Servolo</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TED_%28conference%29">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TED_%28conference%29</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> an idea: Monterey, adjacent
    to TED 29/2--1/3</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> 3--5 March I have to be in
    Tokyo, travel either side<br />
    ... but my term ends before then</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> How about 26-27 Feb?<br />
    ... in Vancouver?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> HST and TVR (elected); NM and
    DC (appointed) terms end 31 Jan 2008</p><a name="action01" id=
    "action01"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Stuart to pursue Feb Vancouver hosting
    offer via WBS, pbly for 3 days [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action01">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>

    <h3 id="item03">HttpRedirections-57, HTTPRange-14 follow-up,
    review of "Cool URIs for the Semantic Web"</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Rhys</cite>&gt; &gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/httpRange-14/2007-08-31/HttpRange-14.html">
    draft</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> I've gotten lots of good
    feedback on this<br />
    ... Both Pat Hayes and Roy Fielding have gotten involved<br />
    ... The problem in part is terminological -- the distinction
    between HTTP 'resource' and WebArch 'resource' hasn't been well
    drawn</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Roy Fielding, either in his
    thesis or the HTTP spec., wasn't particularly formal about
    terminology</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> What I mean by HTTP:resource
    is the definition in the HTTP spec. of 'resource'</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Some of those produce 200
    when you do a GET, and sometimes you get a 303, and then
    whether the URI identifies a resource or not is unclear</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec1.html#sec1.3">http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec1.html#sec1.3</a>
    [[ resource A network data object or service that can be
    identified by a URI, as defined in section 3.2. Resources may
    be available in multiple representations (e.g. multiple
    languages, data formats, size, and resolutions) or vary in
    other ways. ]]</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> In section 1.3 Terminology we
    have a defnition of a network data object or service</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Does this cover only http:
    URIs?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> No, section 3.2 makes clear
    it covers URL, URN, ... -- any scheme</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> So I was trying to define two
    terms in the draft -- I'm using 'web resource' for the meaning
    from WebArch and 'web presence' for the HTTP/1.1 meaning</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HST:</cite> What about the original
    definition of "a resource is anything that can be named by a
    URI"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> That's in the URI spec.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I'm not so interested in old
    definitions, because they were often not framed in very strict
    ways<br />
    ... The distinction between inf. res. and res. which we
    articulated in WebArch was hard-won, and does have the
    crispness we need</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> So I think we left something
    out of WebArch, which is what I've called 'web presence', which
    is what responds e.g. 302 when you GET a non-inf. res.<br />
    ... This is what I've called a 'web presence'</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> What about 404?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> That's the one thing that's
    not a web presence, it's the lack of one</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> What kind of thing is it?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Is there a definition in the
    draft?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> No, not really -- examples
    and discussions</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> It feels like a state of
    being</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> That's sort of right -- it
    could be a piece of code, or some server configuration -- it's
    the result of someone _doing_ something so that doing a GET on
    a particular URI will not respond 404</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> It's an aspect of web
    infrastructure<br />
    ... Partly addresses Pat's complaint of the distinction between
    what you access to find out about Mars and Mars itself<br />
    ... Pat wants us to distinguish more carefully between access
    and identify as operations/terms</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> Looking for an architecture
    level description of what someone does when they mint a URI,
    whetehr</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; ht, you wanted to
    follow up on 'what someone does'</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; DanC_lap, you wanted
    to ask that we please tell the straightforward story of
    "doc#term means whatever term refers to as used in doc, by
    analogy to one paper importing a term by</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HST:</cite> I really like this idea of
    what it is someone does, once, so that thereafter something
    which used to produce a 404 now produces something else
    (useful)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I really want this document
    to focus on the simple questions of what doc#term means<br />
    ... and how people should choose URIs</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> The original motivation
    was</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> to take the short email Roy
    Fielding sent about our closing of httpRange-14 and write it up
    in detail</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Then how can the issue be
    closed?</p>

    <p class='phone'>[unminuted process discussion]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; ("core issue
    decided" is just silly if what's written down doesn't satisfy
    the community)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; actually, <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/28">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/28</a>
    fragmentInXML-28</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> What issue should we address
    a) the 300 responses and b) the # issues under?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I think the # question is
    important -- there are lots of uses of it both in RDF and HTML
    and there's a lot of confusion and misunderstanding<br />
    ... We can and should write a finding to explain how this all
    works, to help the communities which are struggling</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; Noah, you wanted to
    say we shouldn't talk too much about the deployment
    mechanics</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (issue 57 is
    somewhat timely w.r.t. the WebAPI XHR work)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I am worried that the draft
    is a bit too broad -- not clear to me what the focus was<br />
    ... a lot of stuff about things you might like to learn about
    interacting with the Web<br />
    ... but it didn't really work for me, a mixture of things that
    are right, things that are not quite right and things that are
    wrong<br />
    ... It needs a set of goals, to focus discussion on how the
    document actually addresses the goals</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> I had a set of goals, which I
    guess didn't come through -- focussed on explaining what it
    could mean to interact with non-information resources</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I'm worried that the overlap
    with the existing IETF RFCs isn't managed well -- in
    particular, 2616</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> Well, we did say in our SF
    meeting that we would include the response codes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; ht, you wanted to add
    indirection identification to the pile</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (hmm... indirect
    identification... I'd like more clarity on that, though I can
    imagine it would cost a lot to get there)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; DanC_lap, you wanted
    to suggest looking at redirections in the XHR spec</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HST:</cite> I hope we will include
    indirect identification in any attempt to provide an overview
    about designing URIs, including when to use #</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; Yes, 303 is weak
    practically, if not theoretically</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> There is an opportunity, in
    the context of XMLHttpRequest, to revise the way redirects are
    exposed through standard library APIs</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> So you're saying the code
    reflects a narrower understanding of how the Web should be
    working, and the opportunity is here to try to fix this</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> For example, if you have a
    relative URI to resolve against a redirected base</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> SemWeb is worrying about
    that</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; Norm, you wanted to
    say that in retrospect, we shouldn't attempt to redefine the
    return codes</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> GRDDL has a 5-page appendix,
    which says, briefly "Resolve against the result of
    redirection"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> It is a mistake to try to
    redefine what the response codes mean</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#base_misc">http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#base_misc</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> The most we can say about 303
    is that we are using an existing technology in a particular
    way</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> I put section 4.3 to
    implement what I understood the group to be asking for, so we
    could decide if we really mean it</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> Right, and now that I've seen
    it I think we were wrong, and it should come out</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; timbl, you wanted to
    ask whether Dan wan ted a tutorial (rather than judgement)
    about hash, and to suggest we do worked examples in HTML and
    RDF.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> We can say we use it in such
    and such a way, but we can't say what it _means_ -- that's for
    the RFC</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> An issue on what # means, or
    a tutorial to tell people?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Issue 28 is good enough for
    me (# in XML)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Not good enough for me -- in
    a tutorial, I can say using Planets#Mars to identify Mars can
    work w/o ever doing a GET, and someone responds "Without doing
    a GET, how do I know what the media type is, w/o which I don't
    know what a fragid means"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I didn't understand your take
    on that until you explained it to me at a f2f, roughly, that in
    the _absence_ of a media type there are general principles I
    can appeal to</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> It's best if you have a media
    type and a resource and that gives the same answer, but you can
    live w/o it</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; DC: you can get
    information about what a URI identifies from various places;
    it's best when they agree</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Working here on WebArch fed
    well into the redraft of the URI spec -- maybe the same thing
    would work for the proposed redraft of the HTTP spec. . ..</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> How about the Cool URIs for
    the SemWeb document -- that seems like a good start on a "how
    to design URIs" document<br />
    ... Any progress on ACTION-43, TBL?</p><a name="action02" id=
    "action02"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[WITHDRAWN]</strong> on Tim
    Berners-Lee to Find the paper that he annotated on the plane
    (and transcribe comments on "Cool URIs for the Semantic Web").
    ACTION-43 [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action02">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> # w/o content-type? You can
    work backwards from what must have been the minter's intent</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; DanC_lap, you wanted
    to note "cool URIs" is headed for /TR/</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> The SemWeb Cool URIs spec is
    officially believed to be on our queue, for TAG review before
    it goes to REC<br />
    ... It's getting exposure, and we should take on reviewing
    it</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I have sent reviews on behalf
    of the TAG on an earlier draft</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> So we should be reviewing the
    new draft, to see if they did what we asked</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (I find <a href=
    "http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~sauermann/2006/11/cooluris/">http://www.dfki.uni-kl.de/~sauermann/2006/11/cooluris/</a>
    9.8.2007 )</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (sort linked from
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/43">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/43</a>
    )</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html">
    https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; ( I also find
    <a href=
    "https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html">
    https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html</a>
    ... date pending... )</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html">
    https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; 14 Feb</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; 14 Sep 2007 , says
    HTTP last-modified</p>

    <p class='phone'>Last line says "1.1 Revised Version 9.8.2007.
    Changes based on TAG review."</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Noah</cite>&gt; Asking about <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jun/0075.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jun/0075.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; I found Dan's
    suggestion of projecting it and doing a group review somewhat
    appealing</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> <strong>ACTION:</strong> TBL
    to review the 14 Sep draft of the Cool URIs for the SemWeb
    document on behalf of the TAG and bring the comments back to
    the TAG</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Noah</cite>&gt; Was it officially on
    behalf of the TAG? Ah, first signature says from Stuart, 2nd
    says Stuart for the TAG. Sorry, missed that.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I will try to review it, but
    I also like the idea of a group review from a projected
    view</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Shall we carry this over, or
    stick with the agenda<br />
    ... that is, we could pull the review of action statuses
    forward, to give us time tomorrow for a projected review. .
    .</p>

    <p class='phone'>[Coffee Break]</p>

    <p class='phone'>[resumed]</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> So RL would like us to use
    some of 'his' time to look at the SWCoolURIs doct, in case it
    influences the treatment of his draft</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Let's not leave w/o coming
    back to Rhys's draft for disposition</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>https:</cite>
    //gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> The discussion of URI/URL in
    the intro is at best misleading -- they shouldn't use URL at
    all</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I think this speaks to the
    audience</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Doesn't the latest RFC move
    away from URLs?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Yes, that's what this para.
    is about<br />
    ... deleting URL won't help</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I think the history of this
    should be explained here</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; 1. "At the same time,
    web documents have always been addressed with Uniform Resource
    Locators (URLs). URIs and URLs share the same syntax, every URL
    is also a URI. "</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; The distinction
    between URLs and URI is not helpful. The term "URI" should be
    used throughout. This discussion has I suspect prompted the
    rather confused track "What happens if a URI is also a
    URL?".</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; 2. "On the
    traditional Web, URIs were used primarily for Web
    documents&#226;&#8364;&#8221;to link to them, and to access
    them in a browser. In short, to locate a Web
    document&#226;&#8364;&#8221;hence the term URL (Uniform
    Resource Locator). The notion of resource identity was not so
    important on the traditional Web, a URL simply identifies
    whatever we see when we type it into a browser."</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; This uses the term
    URL, but suggest identity was not important ... it was
    important.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; change to maybe</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; "On the traditional
    Web, URIs were used primarily for Web
    documents&#226;&#8364;&#8221;to link to them, and to access
    them in a browser. In short, to identify a Web document, such
    as &lt;<a href=
    "http://example.com/about%3E">http://example.com/about&gt;</a>
    or a hypertext acnhor within a document such as &lt;<a href=
    "http://example.com/about#staff%3E.">http://example.com/about#staff&gt;.</a>
    With the semantic Web, URIs are used to identify arbitrary
    things such as people, proteins and calendar events.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Noah</cite>&gt; Note that I suggested
    during the discussion that it might be helpful for them to
    explain that the recommended terminology was changed in RFC
    3986. URL used to be an appropriate term, now URI is
    preferred.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> They use URIs in the titles
    of sections, and URLs everywhere else</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I prefer they dispose of URL
    in the introduction, and use URI througout</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Or put in an appendix to
    explain the history</p>

    <p class='phone'>General discussion leading to an agreed first
    comment in TBL's draft [to be attached]</p>

    <p class='phone'>TBL's second comment: Identity was always
    important</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Google does lots of
    canonicalisation because the value of cache hits is high and
    the cost of conflating two actually distinct resources is
    low</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; FYI... my comments
    on the earlier draft are at: <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jun/0075.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jun/0075.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Section 2 doesn't really
    address the reference/resource distinction</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I'm concerned with the
    'everything' in that section</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I don't think it's all that
    misleading, this is a tutorial, I think it's OK</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> OK</p>

    <p class='phone'>TBL's second proposed edit agreed as
    written</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; bug: "Content
    negotiation [TAG-Alt] is often implemented with a twist:
    Instead of a direct answer, the server redirects to another URL
    where the appropriate version is found:"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; no, that's not
    content negotiation</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> is 302 the one that means
    "fix the source link"?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> no</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; DC: hmm... maybe
    redirects based on Accept: are a form of conneg</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Well, maybe if they're
    choosing a redirect based on headers it _is_ conneg too</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; oh, just change
    "the HTML..." to "the content of the document in HTML in
    English"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; hi DO... we're
    poring over <a href=
    "https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html">
    https://gnowsis.opendfki.de/repos/gnowsis/papers/2006_11_concepturi/html/cooluris_sweo_note.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>Further discussion of how strong to make TBL's
    comment 4 on the conneg/redirect para</p>

    <p class='phone'>and of the cost (theoretical and practical) of
    round trips</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Noah</cite>&gt; From our alternative
    representations finding: <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/alternatives-discovery.html#id2261787">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/alternatives-discovery.html#id2261787</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>Wording of TBL's comment 4 agreed</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Noah</cite>&gt; With that same URI,
    use HTTP content-negotiation, along with the correct HTTP VARY
    headers to serve up the appropriate representation at access
    time. Ensure that the VARY headers capture the right parameters
    that were used to choose the representation that is being
    served &#8212; this is important for correct behavior when
    using cacheing proxies.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Noah</cite>&gt; As an alternative to
    the previous step, arrange for the server to generate an HTTP
    302 (Found) redirect to automatically serve up <a href=
    "http://example.com/ubiquity/representation_i">http://example.com/ubiquity/representation_i</a>
    when <a href=
    "http://example.com/ubiquity">http://example.com/ubiquity</a>
    is accessed by user-agent_i.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (we started ~30min
    later than the agenda called for; the agenda calls for lunch at
    12:30. I'm starting to feel lunch-y)</p>

    <p class='phone'>Discussion of the 301/302 difference, and the
    fact that browsers (incorrectly) treat them the same</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> There's a security argument
    for this -- not letting the user be misled about "where they
    are"</p>

    <p class='phone'>Discussion of SW's comment on the first para
    of section 3</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> OK, I'll back off, but I do
    maintain that not all use of e.g. 303 are by definition uses of
    the Semantic Web</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (hmm... I wonder
    about using "hypertext web" rather than "traditional web")</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HST:</cite> I think that _historically_,
    that is, before the SemWeb was thought of, that http: URIs were
    _always_ used to identify what we know call information
    resources.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (hmm... "We call
    these things resources" suggests there are things other than
    resources, which there aren't. noodling on alternatives doesn't
    yield much, though.)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; for the record, I
    abstain from adding http: in there too, norm.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Shall we carry this forward
    offline?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> How?</p><a name="action03"
    id="action03"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Norman review Cool URIs for the
    Semantic Web [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action03">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot-ng</cite>&gt; Created
    ACTION-46 - review Cool URIs for the Semantic Web [on Norman
    Walsh - due 2007-09-24].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht_</cite>&gt; [break for lunch]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; trackbot-ng,
    status?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; trackbot,
    status?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; trackbot-ng,
    status</p><a name="action04" id="action04"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Tim Review the 14 Sep draft of the
    Cool URIs for the SemWeb document on behalf of the TAG and
    bring the comments back to the TAG [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action04">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot-ng</cite>&gt; Created
    ACTION-47 - Review the 14 Sep draft of the Cool URIs for the
    SemWeb document on behalf of the TAG and bring the comments
    back to the TAG [on Tim Berners-Lee - due 2007-09-24].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; I can dial in now.
    Apparently I'm awake for the duration...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Noah</cite>&gt; scribenick: Noah</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; scribe: Noah
    Mendelsohn</p>

    <p class='phone'>date: 17 September 2007</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; chair: Stuart
    Williams</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; agenda: <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-agenda</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; wanders off to
    review Noah's latest note..</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Need to ask whether as a
    result of this morning's discussion we can give Rhys
    guidance.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Don't think so. We didn't
    make it into the pertinent parts of the Cool URI's
    document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Yes, seems unlikely we can
    get far enough while Tim's still with us.<br />
    ... OK, we might come back to this at 14:30 UK time, otherwise
    after Cool URIs review is completed.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; Dave, use that code and
    we'll join you shortly</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; ht has danC_lap, Noah,
    Norm, Rhys, Stuart, timbl</p>

    <h3 id="item04">TagSoupIntegration-54: Distributed
    Extensibility</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Where should we go with
    this?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> On last telcon, my review of
    XHTML modularization concluded that with respect to distributed
    extensibility, XML Schema Substitution groups, particularly as
    provided in Schema 1.1, are just what they need. Remind me,
    what's the motivation for this issue again?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Had some roots in class
    attributes, profile attributes (possibly deprecated in HTML 5),
    microformats, etc. If the values for these aren't URIs, or
    don't get you to URIs, you can't "follow your nose" on the
    Web.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I had raised an issue
    relating to standardized name values. When Microsoft and
    Netscape were arguing about the Marquee tag, we said short
    strings were bad. Now we act like in microformats it's OK.
    Maybe it's because there's more of a consensus process around
    microformat deployment.<br />
    ... Then people ask "what about collisions". I think
    microformats answer is "not a serious risk". To some extent
    that's true. And there the conversation tends to stop.<br />
    ... Comes up somewhat with respect to new URI schemes. Stopping
    to ask IANA when you're grinding code isn't something people
    feel motivated to do. Hard to know how to motivate
    people.<br />
    ... There's a Facebook ML (FBML) proposal from Facebook that's
    mentioned in a Sam Ruby post. Was discussion about distributed
    extensibility with Ian Hickson about SVG etc. in HTML 5. Ian
    says: they'll be there. The pushback is that things like SVG
    were the result of relatively centralized definition.<br />
    ... HTML group seems to take position that these things should
    shake out, and then get integrated into HTML as the community
    settles on them.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Is this an issue people are
    still prepared to discuss, or are positions pretty well
    set.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Complicated.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; dorchard, you wanted
    to say that I think microformats does "values", are *nice*
    guys, and fly below the radar but technically no different</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> The microformats answer is
    only OK until there is a collision. The multimedia folks did
    hit a collision and wrote up an interesting posting on
    that.<br />
    ... That's different from the &lt;marquee&gt; case, because
    attribute values seem less scary than element names. Also,
    everyone involved seems like nice guys; less concern about
    corporate agendas.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (the difference
    between element names and class attribute values is that class
    attribute values were open to the user/author, and element
    names were reserved for standardization)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> So, this seems to fly below
    the radar, but technically attribute value squatting is no
    different than element name squatting. There really isn't
    openness at microformats.org</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; ht, you wanted to
    mention XPointer registry</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> As a result of discussion in
    this forum a long time ago, we did in the end implement a
    registry for XPointer schemes at W3C.<br />
    ... This lets you construct a URI from the short name to get
    the information you need.<br />
    ... This an example of a middle ground option.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I think that's only the right
    answer if you own the space in which the name goes. Probably
    not right for class attribute.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Yes, but might be for roles.
    Why couldn't microformats people do that?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Because they don't get to say
    what goes in my class attributes.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I happened to use
    rel="chapter" in some of my design issues book, so RDFa guys
    produce bogus triples when pointed to my stuff.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> that's related to the
    long/shortname issue, but the real problem there, as with
    microformats, is grabbing ownership long after the first
    deployments.<br />
    ... So, distributed extensibility is an important issue.
    Deciding that certain attribute values have specific meaning
    years after documents have been deployed is a related but
    ultimately different issue.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> ???</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> First come first serve
    doesn't give you much quality. One of my concerns about
    microformats is that in 20 years we'll all know that
    class="phone47" is the right way to do phone numbers, because
    the first 46 cuts weren't right.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Dave - please type in what you said...I had
    trouble getting it for the minutes. Thanks.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Do registry based systems
    meet the need.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; Now here's an
    idea. Microformats should define a versioning strategy that
    includes version #s in the value (structured attributes)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Yes, it's not centrally
    managed.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Huh, of course it is.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> I'll try again. Something
    that's automatic and first come/first serve, because anyone can
    initiate the grabbing of the name.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; Then they say if
    you see "phone" or "phone1xyz" then they are compatible.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; if you see
    "phone2xyz" then they are version 2 of the phone and all v2
    phones are compatible</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Aren't dns names a good
    example?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Well, there have been ICANN
    problems.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Well there are lists, trees,
    etc. At least trees have delegation. Graphs remove that
    weakness.<br />
    ... I think a tree is right for DNS, because sometimes you need
    some control. Nobody's done internet with guids on
    everything.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> If you want global
    uniqueness, a registry is as distributed as you can get.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Large random numbers.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; DanC_lap, you wanted
    to bring up recent Atom</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2007/09/14/Lousy-Aggregators">
    http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2007/09/14/Lousy-Aggregators</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; I previously said
    "adding the equivalent of ns prefix to microformats may be too
    complicated, and the microformats folks probably wouldn't
    change what they did"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Tim Bray blocked about Atom
    interop problems and David Megginson suggested that XML
    Namespaces were an example of premature standardization.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; comment From:
    David Megginson (Sep 14 2007, at 17:33)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; "in retrospect, we
    got too far in front of implementors' requirements and
    delivered a spec to solve problems someone might have some day
    in the future, instead of problems people actually had at the
    time."</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Yeah, one of the RDF tools
    assumes that xsd: is bound to the 2001 XML Schema namespace
    URI. I used it for something else this week and the tool just
    blew up.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; &lt;link
    rel="openid.server" href="<a href=
    "http://openid.example.com/">http://openid.example.com/</a>"&gt;</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Sometimes you see
    rel="openid.server". Like prefixing your emacs functions with
    your initials.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Emacs has no package
    system.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; dorchard, you wanted
    to say that planning for the future will always provoke a
    response of "that's not a problem why should I do it now?"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I think everyone more or less
    agrees about the technology choices, it's getting people to see
    that the use cases matter.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> Getting people to plan for
    the future, as with versioning, is hard.<br />
    ... Microformats folks feel that "I don't have a problem
    now."<br />
    ... You can generalize that to try and figure out when you're
    going to have trouble. It's easy to see in Java that you
    will.<br />
    ... Less obvious for class attributes.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (I'm curious about
    the cost/benefit in practice with java using DNS for package
    names... it avoids some conflicts, but it motivates some
    renaming when companies move in DNS space, I gather. I'm
    curious about actual experience)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; HST found it a royal
    pain</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> Dave Megginson may say
    namespaces was premature. It's not perfect but it's been
    effective in giving the community something to solve the
    problem.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> We need to talk about the
    "follow your nose" aspect.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; On the "follow
    your nose" rationale for using URIs, I think most folks figure
    that search engines solve that problem..</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> We used to joke about how,
    before Google, it implied that everyone would have to talk to
    everyone.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> How does that work?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Google registers that
    all.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> That's not everyone talking
    to everyone, it's everyone talking to Google.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; ht, you wanted to
    consider the Python example</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Noah's right. Everyone
    talking to everyone is n-squared. What you're describing is a
    notice board, which is order n.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Well, I just tried looking at
    my own favorite DTD, which has a class="code". So, I took Dan's
    advice and Googled them. Lo and behold, there are lots of them.
    How do I know if they're significant?<br />
    ... It's not a usable notice board. How do I use it?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> You just did. You told me
    it's "all over the map".</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> I can't tell if I'm openning
    myself to the problem Tim experienced, which is what Tim
    reported, I.e. that someone will infer the wrong semantics from
    my document.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Henry takes some time to look for
    class="vcard" in Google.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> If I wanted to put some of
    this in a TAG finding, I couldn't.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; Raman, signing in
    from the bus to work</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> It's economics. 10 years ago,
    the cost of doing the search was higher.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; Please email me the
    dialin and access code, can dial in once I get to work (about
    60 minutes from now</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Nothing was done to help the
    emacs community. Python didn't have a package mechanism to
    start, but around v1.4 or so Guido decided to offer an
    (optional) package system.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; I think most of the
    pushback against namespaces and packaging in the html community
    is a consequence of using namespace URIs to achieve the
    end-result --- the pushback is "syntactic not semantic".</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; Notice that no one
    pushes back against greasemonkey scripts introducing a
    namespace</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; Noah, none of what
    you typed about the conference code made any sense to me.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> The community that's
    vulnerable to collisions is very different when I'm important
    some emacs macros than when someone runs a tool over the Web
    and stumbles on Tim's document.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; OK, I'll use zakin
    with our usual code when i get to work</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Grounding packages in DNS can
    be a pain if a company gets bought.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> The Norm is you live with the
    old package names.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; Also, given their
    syntactic ugliness, xml namespaces do far less than they
    promise on the surface no nesting for instance (not that I want
    nested namespaces -- that was a disaster in Common Lisp).</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>RL:</cite> There are tools that will
    just do it for you in Java.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; eikeon</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; redimport, I
    think</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Again, remember that there's
    usually a programmer there, knowing what they're doing when you
    use a Java package. Anyone at all can find Tim's documents on
    the Web.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (this bumps into
    all my noodling and bookmarks on software installation)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> there are tools that let you
    do some automatic import in Python</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Are we ready for our
    technical plenary session?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I think the rubber hits the
    road when we talk to HTML 5, openid, groups, etc. I'm OK if
    this sits in the someday pile until the plenary.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> We've had offers from Tim,
    Noah, Dan, and Norm.<br />
    ... Dave, you pick what you need.<br />
    ... Dave, are you moderator?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I've proposed, nobody pushed
    back. I'd be ok if someone else moderated after I brought
    people together.</p>

    <h3 id="item05">Face to Face Scheduling Revisited</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Dave, we had talked about
    asking you to host a face to face in or near Vancouver
    Tues-Thurs Feb 26-28. OK?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> Yes</p>

    <p class='phone'>****BREAK****</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; Uncaught exception:
    Permission denied to call method XMLHttpRequest.open</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; zakim +0 is ht</p>

    <h3 id="item06">XMLVersioning-41</h3>

    <p class='phone'>ACTION-15</p><a name="action05" id=
    "action05"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[DONE]</strong> Henry S.
    Thompson to Review XHTML Modularization (<a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/)">http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/)</a>
    ACTION-15 [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action05">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> I said on the call that
    substitution groups were a good bottom up extension mechanism,
    but a bad top-down modularization mechanism. They're not that
    good at helping you to share work. For example, sharing between
    XHTML basic an other versions.<br />
    ... A good system should help you maintaining the versions as
    bits change.<br />
    ... I've concluded that what I said was false. You can in fact
    achieve good top down sharing.<br />
    ... The simplest and most universal way, we be to have one file
    per element. They already have &gt;50 files for 80 elements, so
    they're nearly there (though they might not be fully conscious
    of that).</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> How?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> 30 second version.
    Substitution groups are bottom up. The only thing that
    determines whether &lt;a&gt; is allowed is in the definition of
    &lt;a&gt; itself. So the easiest way to determine whether
    &lt;a&gt; is in your language, is to include only the file with
    the def. of &lt;a&gt;. One can do better. Intuition is I could
    reproduce what they have, but I haven't proven that.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> For what it's worth, the
    Docbook RelaxNG schema works in a very similar style.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> You have an action item.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; trackbot-ng,
    status</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> I want a new one.</p>

    <p class='phone'>ACTION-16 on David Orchard to Incorporate the
    NVDL text into the findings. - due 2007-09-27, open</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Action continues.</p><a name=
    "action06" id="action06"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Noah Mendelsohn to draft a blog item
    for review and, pending creation of a TAG blog mechanism, post
    it (ACTION-28) <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> [recorded in
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action06">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action06</a>]</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Continues, pending
    availability of blog</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Is the blog on today's
    agenda.</p><a name="action07" id="action07"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; <strong>ACTION:</strong>
    ht to produce an exemplary implementation of XHTML
    Modularization using substitution groups for both bottom-up
    extensibility and top-down modularity [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action07">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action07</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot-ng</cite>&gt; Created
    ACTION-48 - Produce an exemplary implementation of XHTML
    Modularization using substitution groups for both bottom-up
    extensibility and top-down modularity [on Henry S. Thompson -
    due 2007-09-24].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; trackbot-ng,
    status</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; A link to the
    announcement of latest editor's drafts should be on the agenda
    and the issue page:</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>dorchard</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jul/0004.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jul/0004.html</a></p><a name="action08"
    id="action08"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> on Stuart Williams to complete review
    of terminology section of of 4 July versioning draft. ACTION-35
    <strong>[DONE]</strong> [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action08">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action08</a>]</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I posted a review last week.
    Dave, did you see it.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> No.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Rhys</cite>&gt; &gt; <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Sep/0069.html">
    Stuart's review</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> You said:</p>

    <p class='phone'>Suggest replace:</p>

    <p class='phone'>"Defn: A *Language* ..."</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>with:</cite></p>

    <p class='phone'>"Defn: A *Language* consists of a set of
    admissable text;</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Why did you want that
    change.<br />
    ... I thought the original definition was OK.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> At least note that I have
    done my action.<br />
    ... I didn't see the terminology much used in the
    strategies.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I had the same comment on use
    of terminology in the XML section.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-strategies#forwardsCompatible">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-strategies#forwardsCompatible</a>
    2.2.2 Forwards Compatible</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; DC: we talked
    about 2.2.2 strategies before; I'm interested to see how the
    recent changes deal with it</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I asked Noah to look at
    2.2.2, he had problem with GPN. He pointed out that the GPN
    isn't right because it doesn't deal with reduction.<br />
    ... Noah agreed that expansion is the majority of the cases,
    but suggested that we be clear in an intro, and proposed some
    text for an intro.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (sounds like
    "requires" is too strong, since later it says SHOULD; maybe
    "motivates")</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; DanC_lap asked for an
    example of terminology problems; compare "component" in the
    terminology section with "component" in the XML document.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> Noah also brought up that
    that if we're just doing extension, then the GPN is a
    tautology.<br />
    ... That's why I had said SHOULD in the GPN, to account for
    reduction.<br />
    ... Maybe it's not a GPN, it's an axiom. But I feel it needs to
    be bolded.<br />
    ... I also posted a couple of lengthy articles on my blog.</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2007/09/13/when_can_language_components_be_removed_and_maintain_backwards_or_forwards_compatibility">
    http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2007/09/13/when_can_language_components_be_removed_and_maintain_backwards_or_forwards_compatibility</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2007/09/13/using_xml_schema_10_when_can_language_components_be_removed_and_maintain_backwards_or_forwards_compatibility">
    http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2007/09/13/using_xml_schema_10_when_can_language_components_be_removed_and_maintain_backwards_or_forwards_compatibility</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> Marc de Graauw also posted
    some material on www-tag, but unfortunately I haven't yet
    reviewed it in detail.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (good question:
    who is the GPN aimed at? surely language designers)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> That's mostly a good summary.
    I wonder whether this isn't really trying to say "extensible
    languages are good, consider creating one"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; DanC_lap, you wanted
    to observe that "Any Language intended for forwards-compatible
    versioning SHOULD have extensibility." seems odd... the
    definition of language doesn't seems to</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I think having extensibility
    need redundancy?<br />
    ... I think having extensibility means it has redundancy?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Yes, that's how I'd like to
    do it!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> But is that what Dave wrote.
    I'm trying to remember the definition. It seems to say that a
    language is extensible if there is redundancy.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Yes, spare syntax.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; [Definition: A
    language is Extensible if the syntax of a language allows
    information that is not defined in the current version of the
    language.].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; from <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> There no processors in the
    definitions.<br />
    ... In part 2 it says: "<a href=
    "http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2007/09/13/using_xml_schema_10_when_can_language_components_be_removed_and_maintain_backwards_or_forwards_compatibility">
    http://www.pacificspirit.com/blog/2007/09/13/using_xml_schema_10_when_can_language_components_be_removed_and_maintain_backwards_or_forwards_compatibility</a>"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; "[Definition: A
    language is Extensible if the syntax of a language allows
    information that is not defined in the current version of the
    language.]"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I don't think it says that,
    but I'm increasingly convinced that it SHOULD say that.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; ^ I read that as
    "A language is Extensible if there are two texts that map to
    the same semantics". Asking Dave if that's as intended seems to
    yield "it's complicated"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I'm torn between saying
    that, which is correct but confusing to newbies, vs. talking
    about the places where you can stick new stuff in.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Having redundency isn't
    enough.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Necessary, but not
    sufficient?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>HT:</cite> Yes.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (the C++ case
    seems like a _not_ extensible language. they assign stuff to
    texts that used to be _illegal_)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> You can have a language that
    has no redundancy. WS Security causes faulting.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (you can have an
    extensible language with no redundancy? oh... he explains... a
    more subtle notion of redundancy than I meant)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (in our model,
    there are usually several ways to look at a format as a
    webarch:language)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ht</cite>&gt; HST mentions the role of
    "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; Noah: If your text
    isn't in the accept set, all bets are offf</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; (<a href=
    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously)">
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorless_green_ideas_sleep_furiously)</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; ...If it's in the
    accept but not the defined set then we can only tell you
    something about it (scribe got lost)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; ...And if it's in both
    sets, then you can say it's perfectly good information even if
    my app doesn't like it.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; ...What worries me is
    that we seem to bounce between these levels without being
    careful.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raman</cite>&gt; have been on about 10
    minutes it's hard to understand the phone conversation, room is
    echoing ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (degraw's stuff
    treats processing formally, I think)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I do note that this doesn't
    much build on part 1. My nervousness with processing model is,
    in part, that we need to connect it to our part 1 concepts of
    information etc.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I thought we were going to
    talk more about reduction. Is there something in the strategies
    that shows a forward compatible restriction that's not a
    reduction.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>daveorchard</cite>&gt; adding optional
    components ( in XML, this is generally elements and/or
    attributes)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>daveorchard</cite>&gt; adding optional
    content, for example extending an enumeration</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> From section 1.2:<br />
    ... adding optional components ( in XML, this is generally
    elements and/or attributes)<br />
    ... adding optional content, for example extending an
    enumeration</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Are you talking about one way
    message scenario?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (there's a strong
    connection between examples and audience. I'm noodling on our
    audience and whether the GPN advice is likely to convince them,
    and it does seem like WS-* messaging designers are more natural
    audience members than, say, HTML 5 designers)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>daveorchard</cite>&gt; Language L2 is
    fully strictly compatible with Language L1 if L1 Accept Text
    set &gt; (superset) Language L2 Accept Text set &gt; (superset)
    L2 Defined Text set &gt; (superset) L1 Defined Text Set AND
    every text in L1 Defined Text set is compatible with L2 AND
    every text in L2 Accept Text set is compatible with L1.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Remind me on forward and
    backward compatible.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> Language L2 is fully strictly
    compatible with Language L1 if L1 Accept Text set &gt;
    (superset) Language L2 Accept Text set &gt; (superset) L2
    Defined Text set &gt; (superset) L1 Defined Text Set AND every
    text in L1 Defined Text set is compatible with L2 AND every
    text in L2 Accept Text set is compatible with L1.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I didn't quite parse "fully
    strictly"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> You asked for some examples.
    That's them.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> OK, I'll check out
    examples.<br />
    ... Fully seemed to be about being very tolerant, strictly
    seemed redundant.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> I may have overloaded
    fully.<br />
    ... Where do you want to go now?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I've only gone there because
    it crept into the IRC log</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I'm still confused about the
    lack of connection to the part 1 terminology</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> That's intentional. I think
    going to the rigorous terminology will throw off the readers we
    intend to address.<br />
    ... I think we really want to say, build extensible languages
    and a model for them.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (huh? you don't
    want to use the definitions in the advice? that seems
    backward.)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Not if the terms aren't
    defined.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I'm worried too.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Are we saying "to make
    extensible languages, make them extensible".</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Yes, make it comprehensible,
    but work from the base.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> What's our feeling about
    examples.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (I'm not at all
    surprised this is hard.)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; Norm, you wanted to
    say that I don't read that definition the same way as Dan</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; daveorchard, you
    wanted to say that a language can be extensible but NOT
    redundant and NOT forwards-compatible evolvable.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; Noah, you wanted to
    talk about processing</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I think we sometimes need
    more rigor consider the text that says: "Preserve existing
    information Rule: Any Language intended for forwards-compatible
    versioning MUST require that extensions MUST not invalidate the
    non-extension text's information."<br />
    ... Is there some operation called invalidation that can be
    done on information.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (this 'invalidate'
    stuff comes back to what I called an open research problem
    around compatiblity of information.)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (again, it doesn't
    surprise me that we're having trouble giving general advice;
    the traditional formal models don't help much here.)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Talking about compatibility
    seems better than "not invalidating"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> In a lot of cases things
    aren't backwards compatible, there's limited damage. Consider
    HTML tables. If you put a doc with tables that don't understand
    them, then you can still get useful stuff out. Graceful
    degradation.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; "Applications are
    expected to behave properly" has som room for judgement it
    seems to me</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (tbl's point about
    costs is another reminder that economics figure in to language
    design and evolution a whole lot, and our formal models don't
    touch on that at all. maybe that's ok, I dunno.)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> But I think we're missing a
    chance to work through the info model. In the HTML case, a
    processor that knows tables will have in its info model will
    know "There's a table there". A processor that knows the older
    language only knows "there's a &lt;table&gt; element
    there."</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> If what I get is that I1 is a
    subset of I2, then... there has to be some relationship
    there.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (looking at
    <a href=
    "http://www.marcdegraauw.com/files/axiomsofversioning.html">http://www.marcdegraauw.com/files/axiomsofversioning.html</a>
    ... he formalizes this information stuff as behavior of
    processors. hm.)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Where would you go, Noah?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Not 100% sure, but I'd be
    inclined to try to talk about what we do and don't know about
    compatible information. I think that in some simple cases, e.g.
    that map to relatively orthogonal named properties, you can do
    a generalized solution. In practice, I think knowing that a
    traffic light being off and a traffic light being green are
    incompatible is domain specific.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>daveorchard</cite>&gt; I think the
    HMTL adding tables and being able to extract flight times is a
    great example.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>daveorchard</cite>&gt; Which is very
    different than a PO adding a security token..</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>daveorchard</cite>&gt; And it seems
    that the language designer makes their best guess as to how to
    do compatibility</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I think we worked hard on
    the terminology and should keep it. Haven't read strategies
    carefully enough. It's finding it difficult to add values for
    users. I wonder whether we could illustrate these with
    particular, or even notorious examples where versioning has or
    hasn't worked well.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>daveorchard</cite>&gt; Then producer
    of a new version decides whether they want to produce an
    instance that is compatible or not according to the rules in
    V1..</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> You could say HMTL growth
    was successful, allowed tables to be put in. Could give the
    validator as a bad example, because it stopped people from
    extending the language when it needn't have.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (examples: HTML 1
    to 2 to 3 to 4; XSLT 1 to 2; XML 1.0 to 1.1 (bzzt). CSS.)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Is there a story we can tell
    about CSS not having a version number?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (other examples I
    hear about include: XBL)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Could tell the story about
    IETF admonitition to typically add x-____ headers, and that
    didn't work out.<br />
    ... Talking about them would be good.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (the
    moz-rounded-corners example brings us right back to the class
    attribute registry discussion)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; timbl, you wanted to
    ask about what classic examples we know</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> Would you try to connect them
    to the formalism.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Yes.<br />
    ... The real problem with the x- stuff was that there was no
    transition to the non x- stuff.<br />
    ... Given examples will bring this alive.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>daveorchard</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-strategies#iddiv194353056">
    http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-strategies#iddiv194353056</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; +1 more examples
    sooner</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> Maybe we could do more for
    the specific examples to flesh them out.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TVR:</cite> I've been confused about the
    business of when you put HTML and CSS together.<br />
    ... When I have an HTML document and CSS, different processors
    may give you a given look.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>daveorchard</cite>&gt; The XML
    document has many more examples and details at <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-xml#iddiv190659352">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/versioning-xml#iddiv190659352</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (I think
    populating the CSS column is likely to be interesting and
    non-trivial; whether CSS's versioning story is exemplary is a
    source of unending discussion in circles I run in.)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TVR:</cite> Start with a document D and
    stylesheet S. S has a property that hides what it's applied to,
    but only one processor honors it. What does that mean.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> Right.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Canonical example. People
    who generate Web pages will tell people which version of CSS is
    being used where.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Stuart</cite>&gt; If you regard HTML
    or HTML+CSS as a presentation language, then surely
    information/meaning is appearance on the screen!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I think you can do at least
    two information mappings for that case. In one, you just note
    that the property is there, and leave it to the processing
    level to know that skipping a hide instruction is incompatible.
    In the other mapping, each text is labeled at the information
    level as displayable or not. In that case, you'll see that the
    information as mapped is incompatible.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TVR:</cite> I think you need some
    warning (TVR--can you help me scribe this better).</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Dan, what would you do
    next?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DC:</cite> I still think dealing with
    forwards compatibility is one of the more interesting things we
    can do. The connections from that section to the definitions
    could be better. The idea of doing more examples could add
    value.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> We kind of focussed on that
    first section. There's stuff in 2.2.2.1 "must accept unknown
    extenstions", where there are more examples.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (hmm... I didn't
    say "could be better"; I suppose it's sort of a fair
    paraphrase, but I don't at all mean to say "coudl easily
    better")</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> The 2.2.2.1 is accept the
    unknowns; 2.2.2.2 is to provide a fallback.<br />
    ... Also some stuff about understanding version
    identifiers.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (perhaps I'm not a
    typical reader, but I'd probably prefer headings like
    "versioning in HTTP 1.1" to "ust Accept Unknown
    Extensions")</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (hmm... "text
    portion"... I think the pattern to note there is the flat-list
    pattern)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DO:</cite> For example, talking about
    "processors must not fault if receiving the expected major
    version numbers"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I skimmed it recently. I see
    myriad good practice notes which describe themselves as rules,
    and not knowing in what context they apply. I infer they don't
    all apply simultaneously. Find myself asking: which rules do I
    use when. I'm lost in a sea of rules.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Norm</cite>&gt; ack</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; Norm, you wanted to
    encourage the editor to reconsider his position about using the
    terminology in the strategies document; making the whole suite
    of documents tighter and crisper</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; For example.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; Provide Extension
    handling Rule: Languages SHOULD specify how unknown extensions
    are handled. ---&gt;</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NW:</cite> I'd like to encourage you to
    reconsider your inclination to keep the terminology out of the
    strategies, but I think the documents would be better if they
    were tighter and more rigorous. We could also in principle add
    a primer etc., but I think we'd be better off. This is the
    first time I've heard you say you weren't trying to do that,
    and it somewhat disappoints me.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; An extensible
    languages provides mapping from documents in any extended set
    to dopcuments whose semantcis is lready defined.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> 10 mins to 5PM. Need to wrap
    up. This is all the time we have scheduled. Need to decide
    where to go.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; The the next one is
    unnecessary in facrt "Preserve existing information Rule: Any
    Language intended for forwards-compatible versioning MUST
    require that extensions MUST not invalidate the non-extension
    text's information.".</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; Sorry, /me waqs not
    wrapping up</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>timbl</cite>&gt; 'Forwards-compatible
    requires extensibility rule: Any Language intended for
    forwards-compatible versioning SHOULD have extensibility."</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> Consider Forwards-compatible
    requires extensibility rule: Any Language intended for
    forwards-compatible versioning SHOULD have extensibility." Is
    this saying: "For something to be extensible it must by
    extensible". If it were crisper, you could tell.<br />
    ... If we related it to the terminology thing it would be less
    readable, but more solid.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> I think I've heard that the
    issue is "What really are the messages that the TAG wants to
    deliver".</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> I think we want to give
    people patterns they can remember and apply.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>SW:</cite> Do we have a catalog</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TBL:</cite> To some degree they're in
    the good practice rules.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DanC_lap</cite>&gt; (yes, the GPNs
    make more sense as patterns, since people know that patterns
    sometimes apply and sometimes don't.)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>NM:</cite> I think we can also help
    people to think a bit more clearly. E.g. do people really know
    how different languages use version ids.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Adjourned.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>daveorchard</cite>&gt; Enjoy your
    sail!</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> ht to produce an
  exemplary implementation of XHTML Modularization using
  substitution groups for both bottom-up extensibility and top-down
  modularity [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action07">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action07</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Norman review
  Cool URIs for the Semantic Web [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action03">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Stuart to pursue
  Feb Vancouver hosting offer via WBS, pbly for 3 days [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action01">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Tim Review the 14
  Sep draft of the Cool URIs for the SemWeb document on behalf of
  the TAG and bring the comments back to the TAG [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action04">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />

  &#160;<br />
  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Noah
  Mendelsohn to draft a blog item for review and, pending creation
  of a TAG blog mechanism, post it (ACTION-28) [recorded in
  <a href="http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action06">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action06</a>]<br />

  &#160;<br />
  <strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Henry S.
  Thompson to Review XHTML Modularization (<a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/">http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/</a>)
  ACTION-15 [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action05">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />

  <strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> on Stuart
  Williams to complete review of terminology section of of 4 July
  versioning draft. ACTION-35 [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action08">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action08</a>]<br />

  &#160;<br />
  <strong>[DROPPED]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> on Tim
  Berners-Lee to Find the paper that he annotated on the plane (and
  transcribe comments on "Cool URIs for the Semantic Web").
  ACTION-43 [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action02">
  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2007/09/17-tagmem-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />

  &#160;<br />
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
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    scribe.perl</a> version 1.127 (<a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
    $Date: 2007/09/21 22:19:38 $
  </address>

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