10-swxg-minutes.html 48 KB

Raw Blame History Permalink

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd">

<html lang='en' xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">
<head>
  <meta name="generator" content=
  "HTML Tidy for Linux (vers 6 November 2007), see www.w3.org" />

  <title>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 10 Feb
  2010</title>
  <link type="text/css" rel="STYLESHEET" href=
  "http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/base.css" />
  <link type="text/css" rel="STYLESHEET" href=
  "http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/public.css" />
  <link type="text/css" rel="STYLESHEET" href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2004/02/minutes-style.css" />
  <meta content="Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference" name=
  "Title" />
  <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv=
  "Content-Type" />
</head>

<body>
  <p><a href="http://www.w3.org/"><img src=
  "http://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home" alt="W3C" border="0" height=
  "48" width="72" /></a></p>

  <h1>- DRAFT -</h1>

  <h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>

  <h2>10 Feb 2010</h2>

  <p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-irc">IRC
  log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd>tpa, [IPcaller], Dsr, Doug_Schepers, hhalpin,
      +1.510.931.aaaa, manu, melvster1, bblfish, +0774811aabb,
      +049172247aacc, +1.617.838.aadd</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>hhalpin</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>melvster</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
        2010-02-10T16:00-17:00GMT</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item02">Action Reminders</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item03">Discussion of high-level
        discussions</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item04">PaySwarm Discussion</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item05">Manu Sporny and Doug Schepers on
        Payswarm</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">
    <p class='phone'></p>

    <p class='phone'></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 10 February
    2010</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; ah. All alone
    again.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; Zakim left the
    channel</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; i can't call in
    right now, will lurk in irc ... try to get on later</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; uhh</p>

    <p class='phone'>ill try :)</p>

    <p class='phone'>any quick tips?</p>

    <p class='phone'>(not scribed before)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; scribenick:
    melvster</p>

    <p class='phone'>thanks!</p>

    <h3 id="item01">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
    2010-02-10T16:00-17:00GMT</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; scribe:
    melvster</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; yup?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AnitaD</cite>&gt; yes, Anita
    Doehler</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AnitaD</cite>&gt; AD is the German
    number</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: to
    approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 27 January 2010 as a true record</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> approve meeting
    minutes?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; APPROVED: SWXG WG
    Weekly -- 27 January 2010 as a true record</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> meeting next week dick
    hardt</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: to meet
    again Wed. February 17th: Dick Hardt on OpenID and WRAP</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: meet
    again Wed. February 17th: Dick Hardt on OpenID and WRAP</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 meet again</p>

    <h3 id="item02">Action Reminders</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> action reminders, see
    weekly agenda<br />
    ... first step high level principles</p>

    <h3 id="item03">Discussion of high-level discussions</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> there've been some
    emails</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0019.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0019.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; +1 for consensus</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> good discussion, we may
    want to try and reach consensus</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> a few different
    responses, perhaps we can restart the discussion<br />
    ... perhaps misunderstanding over wording<br />
    ... some of the discussion was related to apps rather than
    UGC</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 to
    misunderstanding :)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> for example 1st principle
    -- what you see depends on who you are</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; yes, so for 1 the
    wording needs to be improoved a little</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> UGC depends on my
    relationship to the visitor, depending on what they can see</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; so the intetnion is
    good</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> im ok with that 1st
    principle<br />
    ... christine did some good work putting this in a table</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/SocialWebFrameworks#The_Terminology">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/SocialWebFrameworks#The_Terminology</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> good thought, perhaps
    empahsis should be on the person publishing it</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Who sees what
    depends on who they are"?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; or the role they are
    instantiating</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> tricky to word,
    difficult to get it right</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; a person can be
    fulfilling different purposes at different times</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; horrible idea</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; If you want, I can
    put out Chris Saad's point</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> idea -- each principle
    should be a haiku :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Why? Maybe the
    site is designed to have a water cooler style 'what's</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; popular' approach
    (like most sites today) - why mandate a personalized</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; experience?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; palindrome</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0025.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0025.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; no-one I can find
    objected.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> 2nd principle, no
    objections recorded</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; taking me a while to
    catch up</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> comments?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> just returning to the
    first principle<br />
    ... some apps dont want a peronalized experienced</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ""Who sees what CAN
    depend on who they are"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Chris Saad made the
    point that it should not be mandated</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; Aphorism is the
    word I was looking for. Each one of those lines should be an
    aphorism</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; (or a tweet)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> takes back to conversations
    in santa clara and vodafone<br />
    ... what differentiates the social web<br />
    ... in santa clara we discussed 'why is created a friend
    different to following an rss feed'</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; yes: it is
    meaningful in a social context to know who you are
    communicating</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> agreed, that even in twitter
    there is an implicit bidirectional connection</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; with</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> social web seems to be
    stronger bidirectionality<br />
    ... bidirectionality implies a different experience</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I'm happy to buy
    that different experience line, I was just bringing up Chris's
    point.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; What you tell
    (publish) to someone depends on who they are in your social
    network.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; idea: "What you
    tell (publish) to someone depends on who they are in your
    social network."</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> its not social unless
    there's bidirectional relationship</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Will having a
    different veiw, depending on who you are, be necessarily be</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESTful?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0069.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-socialweb/2010Jan/0069.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> bringing up chris saads
    point</p>

    <p class='phone'>hi</p>

    <p class='phone'>dont have a mic here im afriad ...!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; no problems, henry
    will talk about REST</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> will it be RESTful</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; kinda obvious but
    information you disclose in a social network is based entirely
    on language, as oppose to real life social interactions</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> important part of the
    web is that documents should link to other documents<br />
    ... one way of doing social networks is to copy information
    from one network to another<br />
    ... one of the key elements of the social web is to reference
    using links</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; or based on
    volition</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> email, for example, can
    be copied from inbox to inbox<br />
    ... but in general there's no identifier</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; yes</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> if one speaks more in
    terms of linking between things, we get closer to the level of
    web architecture</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> agree with anitaD / DKA
    that connections are important, seems not terribly RESTful, but
    im ok with that, in certain contexts<br />
    ... eg between friends you can access certain URIs<br />
    ... that is sort of restful in a wierd way</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 to second (Chris
    also said "sure")</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>anitad:</cite> any comments to the 2nd
    high level principle?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; And I agree with
    first, but we might want to clarify the relationship to REST in
    our text.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>anitad:</cite> no ...<br />
    ... 3rd principle</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; yes for 3. That's a
    key REST principle</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I agree with the
    third. Chris disagreed..</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>anitad:</cite> You can expose your
    content (User Generated Content) to different &gt; Social
    Networks or Social Applications, without the need to store the
    &gt; content in these networks/applications.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I think Chris
    mainly was worried that we were *mandating*, but then we're not
    looking for requirements but guiding principles</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>anitad:</cite> currently often need to
    store UGC on several different servers<br />
    ... was that clear?<br />
    ... continuing principle 4<br />
    ... You can define the access control on a per item basis,
    either per contact, or per group.<br />
    ... again referring to UGC<br />
    ... user should be able to define access control to different
    attributes of UGC</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; what is "an item"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> are we maybe missing the
    identity of the user?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; good question</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> is global identity one
    of the principles</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> we discussed this
    internally</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think they are
    instantiating a role</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> depends on terminology
    used</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; I have a question
    about the principles...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> users can have different
    profiles</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Also users can have
    multiple legal identities (e.g. dual citizens)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i operate as an
    admin, and as a user, i am the same person</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> i dont always need to
    disclose my real identity</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; my identity is
    immaterial its the role im using</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; role</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> notion of type of
    identity is not so important, but we need a unique name<br />
    ... name should refer uniquely to one thing, needs to be
    global<br />
    ... to carry out the principles we need a global way of
    referring to something<br />
    ... wondering if that's something that follows? or should it be
    a principle?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; identity should be a
    principle... it doesn't have to be global</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> you cant force someone to
    use one global identity</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; but you do need it to
    talk about them - FOAF, VCARD, etc</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; reference</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Maybe "Resources
    should have global identifiers (URIs), even if access to them
    is restricted on a contextual basis"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Basically, that is
    the "Web" in "Social Web" :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 what harry
    said</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> you dont need to force
    someone, but you need to identify they globally, you just need
    a handle on them, it's not a global identity, but in certain
    contexts they'll know it's me</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think its a
    principle</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; doesn't need to be
    global identifier.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> you can also refer to me
    as 'henry story', or bblfish, but in a global name, we need to
    give people global name, so that we can know which resources to
    give access to who</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; just needs to be
    identifier.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> somehow the user needs
    to identify, so that the website can for example show a
    picture</p>

    <p class='phone'>who's speaking?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; doug?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; hi doug</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; identifier of unique
    resource/entity ... all identifiers of same resource/entity
    should be owl:sameAs'ed ... and presto</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> mostly wondering if this
    group is going to apply principles to some of the leading
    social networks out there ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Manu, so we have a
    list of 50 top social networks we were going to test these and
    use-cases against</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; (looking for wiki
    list)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> might be helpul, and also
    the reverse, eg finding something that the leading soc nets do
    that are not in the list ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; this is a very good
    idea</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; important to refresh
    this</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; we didn't really go
    into the depth which is proposed</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; haha!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> covered 50 top social
    networks, inc. mobile, good suggestion to apply to soc nets</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; and then be out of
    date a few days later</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; any site/service
    should be able to create their own Identifiers (URIs) for their
    members.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; all members should
    be able to assert "I am also *that* member of *that* site" --
    and perfect world, each service could verify that assertion</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Resources should
    have global identifiers (URIs), even if relationship to them
    are restricted on a contextual basis"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Broader than
    people</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> could we deal with
    henry's comment, by adding principle 6: something like
    resources should have global identifiers even if access is
    restricted<br />
    ... you dont necessarily have to have the same access
    permission</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; "global identifier"
    remains troubling to me</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; "global" isn't
    correct</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; it's not the only
    identifier of the entity</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; global means
    unique</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; Universal Resource
    Identifiers</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Resources should
    have universal/unique/uniform identifiers (URIs), even if
    relationship to them are restricted on a contextual basis"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> unique rather than
    global perhaps? universal? uniform?<br />
    ... might be a nice addition?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; Resources should
    have identifiers (URIs).</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; period</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Resources should
    have identifiers (URIs), even if relationship to them are
    restricted on a contextual basis"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; it would be
    interesting to get the Web Architecture people to look at
    those</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i agree on identifier
    but dunno about globalness</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ok, happy to drop
    globalness.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 on last
    principle</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; that works :-)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; maybe its called
    for?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> principle 5. You can
    communicate with connections no matter which Social Network or
    Social Application you share.<br />
    ... that's it ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: Social
    Web XG adopts (puts in final report) Anita's principles plus a
    URI principle as our guiding principles</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>FabGandon</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; DKA, you wanted to
    suggest we at least reach consensus on the idea of publishing
    some principles into the final report + a survey of how current
    social networks show these...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; bblfish?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> i support the proposed
    resolution, but also the idea of building outwards</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; +1 though I think
    we should be open to improovements to the lanauge</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Yuk?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I would also like to
    build up or out</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Yoshiaki?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> like the idea of looking at
    current soc nets and apps. and showcase these principles</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; We can wordsmith a
    bit in the wiki</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I'm a little taken
    aback by going to resolution stage</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; that's fine</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> i put a page called
    final report in the wiki, ill put the principles in there</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; We can also move fast
    in W3C when necessary.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: Social
    Web XG adopts (puts in final report) Anita's principles plus a
    URI principle as our guiding principles</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; sure</p><a name=
    "action01" id="action01"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to put these principles in new
    wiki page [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-124
    - Put these principles in new wiki page [on Harry Halpin - due
    2010-02-17].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>yoshiaki</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Thanks Anita!</p>

    <h3 id="item04">PaySwarm Discussion</h3>

    <h3 id="item05">Manu Sporny and Doug Schepers on Payswarm</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> have a special guest on
    the phone</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; thanks anita</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> manu sporny and doug
    schepers on payswarm<br />
    ... thankful about your work with html / rdfa<br />
    ... doug is one of the api experts at the w3c</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * The overall goal of
    PaySwarm</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * build ability to
    buy/sell digital content into browsers</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * We are discussing a
    system that has been implemented commercially</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * bitmunk.com (website
    and peer-to-peer PaySwarm network)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * Digital Contracts
    and Electronic Signatures as a basis for</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; licensing and
    copyright-aware digital content distribution</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * E-SIGN Act of
    2000</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * The typical
    participants on a PaySwarm network</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * content owner</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * The Sales
    Verificatin Authority</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * sellers</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * buyers</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * How pricing is
    calculated on a PaySwarm network</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * content owner
    royalty + seller distribution fee + network fees</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * Licenses are sold
    separately from data</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * A typical content
    transaction on a PaySwarm network</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Manu:</cite> overall goal is to buy and
    sell digital content in web browsers</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; 1. content owner
    registers content with SVA and sets royalties</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; 2. buyers search for
    content to buy or visits a website with</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; semantic markup or a
    link to initiate a purchase contract</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; 3. buyer purchases
    content from the swarm</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; 4. buyer automatically
    joins swarm for re-distribution</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; 5. buyer becomes
    seller and gets a cut of each download</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * More resources</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * PaySwarm FAQ:
    <a href=
    "http://payswarm.com/specs/payswarm-faq.html">http://payswarm.com/specs/payswarm-faq.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; * PaySwarm Use Cases:
    <a href=
    "http://payswarm.com/specs/payswarm-use-cases.html">http://payswarm.com/specs/payswarm-use-cases.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Manu:</cite> mobile, and from
    corporations to customers, and P2P<br />
    ... there's a site called bitmunk.com ... im the founder of
    digital bazaar</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> )</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; me too lost manu
    for a second</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> it's more than high level,
    we have a lot of details worked out</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>manu</cite>&gt; hmm</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; I think it is</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> please feel free to ask
    questions as we go alon</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; yes we hear you</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; So basically let's
    do questions at end</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; and add yourself as
    usual using "q+"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> basis of payswarm is using
    digital contracts and electronic signatures as a way to encode
    content and exchange<br />
    ... esign act of 2000, is a basis<br />
    ... if you can verify a person's identity (eg bankcard /
    electron signature) or drivers licence, their use of that is as
    binding as a pen signature<br />
    ... this opens doors to using digital contracts<br />
    ... not just small priced, but also high priced, up to $150,000
    is enforcable in the US</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; lost manu</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; very echoy</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; sadly, IP telephony
    is really not up to what it could be</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; ouch! cell
    phone</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> calling in on cell phone</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ...some drop-outs
    happening...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ...maybe he fell down a
    well...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; bzzzzt
    crscsssdfssdsd bzzttt</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> 4 major participants<br />
    ... content owner (creates digital content) music label, music
    studio, home studio, research, anything digital<br />
    ... sales verification authority, identity management, collect
    royalties, distribute royalties, making sure the network is
    operating corrections, police DOS, eg digital bazaar,
    itunes/amazon could<br />
    ... sellers<br />
    ... buyers<br />
    ... buyers and sellers are almost interchangable<br />
    ... a buyer can become a source, just like bittorrent<br />
    ... thats how we add scalability<br />
    ... questions?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; no that seems
    simple</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; you have 4 types of
    users</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; or 4 roles</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> theres a lot of complexity
    behind the scenes<br />
    ... pricing is calculated, you have to allow pricing
    independently<br />
    ... content owner is allowed to set royalties, independent of
    the sellers prices<br />
    ... sellers then set their prices<br />
    ... then there are network fees<br />
    ... final price is, royalties plus sellers distribution fee
    plus network fee<br />
    ... spec allows more complexity<br />
    ... the network we separate purchasing a licence with
    purchasing a good<br />
    ... eg you can purchase a low definition or high definition
    stream<br />
    ... typically how the content industry would like it to
    work</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; sounds sensible</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; though I would not
    have thought about doing that</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> typical transaction ...
    content owner goes to the SVA and registers their content for
    sale, by uploading a reference file<br />
    ... these are my royalties</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; it seems like it is
    crucial to allow separate pricing, and that does keep it rather
    simple.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; may some issues
    about "network" i.e. in distributed apps where you get to one
    app via another one...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> once registered on the
    network, buyers will then find the file on the network</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; like going to a ad
    via Google :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; who gets the
    cash?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> doesnt have to happen on one
    website, the system is decentralized</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; just the last
    network?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thx:</cite> eg can be download from a
    blog<br />
    ... part of your pay goes to support a blog<br />
    ... you can embed data using rdfa / micrformats<br />
    ... buyers find information through a web based mechanism<br />
    ... they can buy from an individual or from the swarm<br />
    ... licence from one person<br />
    ... each piece of data from 1000's of people<br />
    ... hope it ends up driving distribution costs down<br />
    ... eg distributing movies in HD<br />
    ... dont need huge capacity, other people will help as they
    have a financial incentive<br />
    ... buyers then seed files by default<br />
    ... payswarm faq<br />
    ... and payswarm use cases<br />
    ... things we want to support in version 2.0 e.g.
    identity<br />
    ... dont necessarily need that<br />
    ... v 2.0 we're going to try and build in identity / financial
    management<br />
    ... that's a quick overview<br />
    ... questions?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "network
    trails"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> how about the idea of
    network trails<br />
    ... look at distributed networks, you may have several layers
    to get to your content</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; So let's say I go
    to Youtube</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; that then sends me
    to a third-party, NoGoodTV</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I get content from
    that.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Can Youtube get a
    cut?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> on a low level, we're going
    to use a bunch of REST api calls, json format, exchange pieces
    of information for the transaction<br />
    ... send it to the SVA<br />
    ... then the purchase process starts<br />
    ... exchange between browser / SVA<br />
    ... could you elaborate on network trails?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; yes, "referrer" is
    the right word</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> a chain of multiple
    referrers, does everyone get a cut?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; so they CAN be
    compensated.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> currently no<br />
    ... doesnt make much sense from a business perspective</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; because that person
    sends them traffic.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> why would they want to pay
    some else</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; the referrer sends
    them traffic.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; letting them sale
    more</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; tpa? I also know
    you've thought a bit about micropayments..</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> the seller would be able to
    choose who else to pay ... we are moving away from the concept
    of middle men on the network</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> might be a surprisingly
    popular option, to have referrers drive traffic to the long
    tail<br />
    ... just throwing a thought out there</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.heppnetz.de/ontologies/goodrelations/v1">http://www.heppnetz.de/ontologies/goodrelations/v1</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> does this fit in with
    goodrelations ontology?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>AnitaD:</cite> talked to mfhepp about
    payswarm, and am sure we will end up integrating GR with
    payswarm<br />
    ... one of the reasons we got involved with RDFa<br />
    ... in our company we have a firefox plugin<br />
    ... will work out all purchasable content on that page<br />
    ... can use that info to generate a contract<br />
    ... send it to the SVA<br />
    ... in the future the browser will scrape the info e.g. in rdfa
    / microformats, then uses that to figure out the contract and
    send to the SVA</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> at imperial 1995, people
    talked about micropayments, why hasnt it taken off? how are you
    keeping the costs low?<br />
    ... fundamental to saving some content providers</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; if I choose to refer
    to a referrer to a seller, I should get a cut of the referrer's
    cut ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; if I choose to refer
    directly to a seller, I should get the entire referrer's
    cut...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; by making the choice
    of how I refer, I have chosen how the payment should be
    made.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; face-to-face
    business works well this way.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; I think that
    empirically deciding "there will be no more middle men!" will
    tend more to stifle business than to encourage it</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; the same reason we
    no longer talk about semantic web ;-)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; its "linked data"
    now :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; good idea
    MacTed</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>shepazu</cite>&gt; ("don't make me
    think")</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> good point, the problem is,
    P2P / micro payments have a bad rap, interfaces were bothering
    the user, eg for 1c 2c, most people couldnt be bothered to
    reach for their wallets</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; ( mhh interesting:
    the identity problem resurges )</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> interactions costs were too
    high<br />
    ... ROI was not there<br />
    ... systems not integrated into browser<br />
    ... you had to join evercoin etc.<br />
    ... wasnt a fundamental part of the web</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; makes sense :-)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; more than anything
    else, too many micropayment providers makes it too hard on the
    purchaser</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> requires too much work on
    the user's behalf, what you would ideally like you to do is
    say, 'would you like to set your daily/monthly spending limit',
    the browser would then operate within that limit</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 this browser
    idea, was thinking about this when NYTimes tried to charge me
    this morning :)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> browser prompts you to
    increase it</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; largely because each
    *seller* tended to have a single relationship with a
    micropayment provider</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> visa transactions cost too
    much</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; transaction
    aggregation is obviously the way it has to be done</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> payswarm addresses each of
    these issues<br />
    ... you put in $10 or $20 at a time</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; (yes NYTimes and
    all the newspapers ask for $25 per year, and one never knows
    ahead of time if one is ever going to read that much from that
    site: hence the importance of micropayments. PaySwarm seems to
    solve this, by making it standard, and make it easy to set
    policies on payments for a site)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> creating a world standard
    for payments couples with browser integration, will reduce
    friction of transactions</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> thanks, very helpful</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; when its seamless
    there is less barrier to entry</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> are you feeling browser
    vendors are helping?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; does PaySwarm aim
    for exclusive arrangements with sellers, i.e., can a seller
    *only* accept PaySwarm, or can they accept any/all
    (micro)payment providers</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; ?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> we think the most important
    people to get on board is the large companies, newspapers,
    music industries ... going to meet one of the big 4 music
    labels today<br />
    ... if they music industry gets behind it, the web browser can
    add a small fee<br />
    ... dont expect that browsers will not want to refuse this
    market<br />
    ... havent approached browser manufacturers yet, but will in
    the next few months, but mainly we're trying with the record
    labels</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; shepazu, you wanted
    to ask about karma</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> thanks</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; ... dont expect
    that browsers manufatcturers will not be interested in a market
    where they can take 1% of every transaction"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> source code released for
    ref impl. hopefully api overview in the next month<br />
    ... in the context of the social web<br />
    ... and distributed management of a currency<br />
    ... eg amazon lets me know how many people have had successful
    transactions with an entity<br />
    ... part of identity management (SVA) can also manage
    reputation?<br />
    ... we need an identity management nexus, dont want to bite off
    too much work<br />
    ... the system is distributed<br />
    ... financial payment system distributed<br />
    ... rating system distributed<br />
    ... 2nd aspect, what if you want to exchange karma<br />
    ... an analogy is MMORPG<br />
    ... world of warcraft millionaires<br />
    ... get magic swords and sell them on ebay<br />
    ... changing currencies<br />
    ... karma and reputation as a currency, can we distribute
    that?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; it's true it could
    help adoption to be able to work with game money</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> game money, real money,
    reputation are mechanisms of distributing credit</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; because then one
    could start without getting through big government agencies</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> might make it easier to do
    some social networking things<br />
    ... might now be just about money, something built into the
    browser, that can be used as a part of exchange<br />
    ... in music there's cash and reputation, you can trade one or
    the other<br />
    ... could tell that to music companies, but it certainly has
    context in the social web<br />
    ... how can people trade reputation among each other<br />
    ... unlike money, it's not a scarce resource</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> you can start growing
    without the overhead of banks etc. can get really big testing
    grounds</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> the currency of exchange
    does not have to be USD EUR etc. can be something else</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> should end the call
    soonish, may be some standardization, we did have micropayments
    in the initial charter<br />
    ... what's the current state of play</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> focussed on getting w3c
    interested, and getting people into the w3c, mobile carriers,
    app stores, standardized app stores<br />
    ... buying and selling research data<br />
    ... artists generating work for you<br />
    ... primary focus is getting as many people as possible, then
    getting those people to go to the w3c</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; member
    organizations in this xg could help if they want to.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> if swxg says payswarm
    should be standarized would be great, and helpful</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; i.e. endorse a
    charter etc.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> w3c already tried
    micropayments in the 90s<br />
    ... dont want to fail at it again<br />
    ... may be some resistance to doing this<br />
    ... w3c may be cautious, conservative on certain issues, due to
    reputation concerns<br />
    ... best way to overcome objections, is to find major
    stakeholders<br />
    ... wont come from browser vendors<br />
    ... opera maybe, but browser vendors in general not, more
    newspapers, movie houses, record labels</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; games</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ...mobile operators who
    want to have interoperable app stores...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> would be good to get
    bankers interested, paypal, amazon</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; :)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> after that see where we can
    go</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; though perhaps the
    W3C could do an XG on this</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> urge w3c to take thison</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> maybe an XG for
    this?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> probably the next
    step<br />
    ... while we're marshalling stakeholders create an XG
    perhaps<br />
    ... trying to bootstrap, xg would be appropriate, necessary but
    not sufficient</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; thanks for
    presenting</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> where do you put the
    money?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> the money is kept with the
    SVA<br />
    ... we have digital money and digital certificates<br />
    ... you're operating as a pseudo bank<br />
    ... governments dont like it when you do that<br />
    ... SVA handle the money<br />
    ... so you dont have an issue in the browser of handling
    money<br />
    ... there isnt even legislation for that<br />
    ... you take a regular credit card<br />
    ... add money to an SVA</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; so it's Paypal
    redux</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> that is linked to the
    browser</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; I have to drop off call
    - sorry! Very interesting presentation. Vodafone might be
    interested in participating in an XG on this topic, for the
    record...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> it's not anonymous</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ciao</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>manu:</cite> completely the other way,
    there needs to be strong identity<br />
    ... anonymous payments is an interesting concept, but it starts
    raising red flags to regulatory agencies</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; trackbot, end
    meetings</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, hhalpin, I
    don't understand 'trackbot, end meetings'. Please refer to
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc">http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc</a>
    for help</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> thanks, end of
    meeting</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; thank you guys</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; trackbot, end
    meeting</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to put
  these principles in new wiki page [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />

  &nbsp;<br />
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
    $Date: 2010/02/10 17:27:01 $
  </address>

  <div class="diagnostics">
    <hr />

    <h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
    before finalizing the minutes.]<br />
    <pre>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/</a>

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/speaker/speaks/
Succeeded: s/cant/can/
Succeeded: s/Doug: overall /Manu: overall /
Succeeded: s/coudl/could/
Found ScribeNick: melvster
Found Scribe: melvster
Inferring ScribeNick: melvster
Default Present: tpa, [IPcaller], Dsr, Doug_Schepers, hhalpin, +1.510.931.aaaa, manu, melvster1, bblfish, +0774811aabb, +049172247aacc, +1.617.838.aadd
Present: tpa [IPcaller] Dsr Doug_Schepers hhalpin +1.510.931.aaaa manu melvster1 bblfish +0774811aabb +049172247aacc +1.617.838.aadd
Found Date: 10 Feb 2010
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/10-swxg-minutes.html</a>
People with action items: hhalpin

</pre>[End of <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> diagnostic output]
  </div>
</body>
</html>