23-mediafrag-minutes.html
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<title>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference -- 23 Sep
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<h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>
<h2>23 Sep 2009</h2>
<p><a href=
'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0129.html'>
Agenda</a></p>
<p>See also: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>Conrad, Jack, Michael, Silvia, Raphael, Thierry, Yves,
Erik</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>Erik, Raphael</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>jackjansen</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">1 admin</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">2 UC & requirements</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">3 specification</a></li>
<li><a href="#item04">4, test cases</a></li>
<li><a href="#item05">5 issues</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='phone'> </p>
<p class='phone'> </p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 23 September
2009</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Scribe:
jackjansen</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Scrinenick:
jackjansen</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> scribenick:
jackjansen</p>
<h3 id="item01">1 admin</h3>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Minutes telecon:
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Minutes F2F:
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/17-mediafrag-minutes.html</a>
and <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/18-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> minutes approved</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Thierry:</cite> action-111 is
ongoing</p>
<h3 id="item02">2 UC & requirements</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> 105 and 106 are ongoing,
will try to do this afternoon</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ACTION-95?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-95 --
Michael Hausenblas to review ALL UC with a mobile hat on and
check whether these sufficiently cover the mobile usage -- due
2009-09-02 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/95">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/95</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> on 95 there seem to be
no issues with mobile</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: 95, no
special issues for mobile</strong></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Side Conditions are
in 2 documents: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-reqs/#side-conditions">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-reqs/#side-conditions</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> which document
should it be?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> close ACTION-95</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-95 Review
ALL UC with a mobile hat on and check whether these
sufficiently cover the mobile usage closed</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Jack: I agree it
should be in one document, no preference</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> tends to think its
requirement doc</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> +1</p><a name=
"action01" id="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphael to move section to
requirements doc only [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Sorry, couldn't
find user - Raphael</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Silvia: about your
suggestion of removing the side conditions section in one of
the two document</p><a name="action02" id="action02"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to move section to requirements
doc only [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-113
- Move section to requirements doc only [on Raphaël Troncy -
due 2009-09-30].</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ... we will remove
it from the spec and keep it in the requirements doc</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +1</p>
<h3 id="item03">3 specification</h3>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ACTION-109?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-109 -- Erik
Mannens to and Davy to write a paragraph in the documents to
explain why we don't include this feature in the spec
(rationale) based on the group analysis (impact both req and
spec documents) -- due 2009-09-24 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/109">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/109</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Yes, Silvia, this
is Erik action we are talking about</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> 109 will be done this
week</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ACTION-110?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-110 --
Silvia Pfeiffer to silvia to Draft a summary starting from her
blog post and the 17/09/2009 IRC minutes in the document (role
of ? and #) -- due 2009-09-24 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/110">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/110</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> 110 will be done
this week</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ... what's the
status of this action?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> not done yet</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> 110 also this week</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> let's talk about range
syntax</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0133.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0133.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I just a few minutes
ago sent an update on that discussion</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0135.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0135.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> does anyone have the
specification that Yves pointed out will update the RFC to
satisfy the need for other range types?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>conrad</cite>> if we are going to
make a spec for time range units, i agree with silvia's
proposal that both Range request header and Content-Range
response header should use "time:npt" etc.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>conrad</cite>> if we start re-using
parsers then we need to have the same syntax constraints in
both</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>conrad</cite>> eg. commas have a
special meaning in headers</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> prefres to stay close to
existing http syntax</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> we are not making
any differences to existing http syntax</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Conrad:</cite> also syntax in different
http headers</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> agrees</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> the RFC has been
reviewed: <a href=
"http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/85">http://tools.ietf.org/wg/httpbis/trac/ticket/85</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> one change was "make
name of header value production for "Range" consistent with
other headers"</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> proposed resolution:
adopt proposal from Silvia, with both range and
content-range<br />
... using dimension:unit</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Range:
<dimension>[':' <unit>] '=' <start time> -
<end time></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>conrad:</cite> units not optional</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> +1 to no optional
unit</p>
<p class='phone'>+1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Range:
<dimension> ':' <unit> '=' <start time> -
<end time></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> same for
Content-Range</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> why no optional
unit?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>conrad</cite>> if any of the time
are allowed to have frame offsets, the unit must be there</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> revised proposal: units
not optional, same for content-range</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> +1 for this
proposal</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> silvia, if the
offset is at the frame precision, then unit is mandatory</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> silvia, because
machines are not humans</p>
<p class='phone'>beep beep</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Silvia, no
objection ?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> no, I am not too
worried about optional/non-optional unit in Range</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> just curious about
reasoning :)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: range
and unit are non-optional in content-range and range
headers</strong></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> btw: the draft RFC
update is here <a href=
"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-07#page-8">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-httpbis-p5-range-07#page-8</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> next, should we use
range for addressing tracks?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Server-parsed_Fragments">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/Server-parsed_Fragments</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>conrad</cite>> silvia: what is your
response about use of range for track?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> Conrad wants new header,
Silvia wants to reuse range</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> range header is mainly
numeric</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I wonder why we need
a different header for that - let me read up on the email
thread</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> we will wait for raphael to
return</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> so, Yves, do you
agree about creating a new "Fragment:" header for tracks?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>conrad</cite>> you can't take an
interval of track names, or describe the instance-length for
Content-Range</p>
<p class='phone'>We will continue.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> you could if the
tracks were ordered</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> then the
"instance-length" could be the number of tracks</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> if we have it in range,
would we need resolver to map track names to byte ranges?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> we need such a
resolver for time, too</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>conrad</cite>> silvia: how do you
request "t=20/20&track=audio" as a Range header, and how do
you make the Content-Range response?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> anyone has any response to
my question?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> multiple Range
headers</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> no opinion</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> multiple
Content-Range response headers</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> multiple content
ranges are allowed</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> there is a similarity to
what we said about aspect ratio</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> is track as a
#fragment really required?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> can you explain the
similarity that you see?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> when a URI can be
contructed with the relevantstarting/ending time</p>
<p class='phone'>Should we table this until next week,
silvia?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> having named tracks
instead of numeric value adds unnecessary complexity that
requires a resolver, or a way to enumerate all the tracks in
order</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I do believe the
track and also the id issues aren't fully understood yet</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I also believe that
it is good to focus on solving the "time" specification and
protocol procedure now, but the others can wait a bit</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>conrad</cite>> Yves, that relates
to ISSUE-4</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> we could indeed keep
discussing this on the mailing list until we have the spec for
"time" finalised</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> table, discuss on mail or
next week.</p>
<h3 id="item04">4, test cases</h3>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> on action 93, it doesn't
seem to affect anything</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION:
action-93, no test cases were affected</strong></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> close
ACTION-93</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-93 Revisit
the TC and see which are effected by the
temporal-optional-comma-decision closed</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> remove test case 4, as
aspect ratio is gone</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION on Michael to remove it</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Sorry, couldn't
find user - on</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION Michael to remove test case 4</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-114
- Remove test case 4 [on Michael Hausenblas - due
2009-09-30].</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> state semantics
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/TC/mftc</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> on to action 108</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> Michael: empty
means that it is defined but yields empty representation</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> looking at naming of
test cases, empty versus undefined<br />
... is inconsistent, will clean it up<br />
... empty means - defined, but yields empty representation</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> two main
categories: defined or undefined</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> undefined means - no
range given</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> empty is
defined, but yields empty representation</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION Michael to come up with categorization
of test cases wrt empty, undefined, etc</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-115
- Come up with categorization of test cases wrt empty,
undefined, etc [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2009-09-30].</p>
<h3 id="item05">5 issues</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> no idea on issue 6</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> table it until Raphael is
back</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Tves:</cite> let's adjourn the
meeting</p>
<p class='phone'>ok, thanks!</p>
<p class='phone'>Too many different syntaxes with rrsagent and
zakim:-)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> yeah we should unify
those ;)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> trackbot, end
telcon</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphael to move
section to requirements doc only [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to move
section to requirements doc only [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/23-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
<br />
[End of minutes]<br />
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$Date: 2009/09/23 11:56:28 $
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