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  <h1>- DRAFT -</h1>

  <h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>

  <h2>12 May 2010</h2>

  <p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-swxg-irc">IRC
  log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd>+1.781.416.aaaa, hhalpin, +0774811aabb, DKA, MacTed,
      yoshiaki, Yolanda, melvster, cperey, +0773779aadd,
      +0752818aaee, mischat</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>DKA</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>hhalpin, Harry</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">Provenance and the Social Web with
        invited guest Paul Groth from Provenance XG.</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">
    <p class='phone'></p>

    <p class='phone'></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 12 May
    2010</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ktk</cite>&gt; hhalpin: no I'm new</p>

    <p class='phone'>Fabien - if you're online, it would also be
    great if you could give an update on the Open Graph Protocol to
    those who missed WWW2010...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ktk</cite>&gt; I'm adrian gschwend</p>

    <p class='phone'>welcome adrian!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ktk</cite>&gt; thanks!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ktk</cite>&gt; got introduced to it at
    last weeks LIFT conference in geneva</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ktk</cite>&gt; so thought will have a
    look :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pgroth</cite>&gt; good i'm in the
    right place</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; scribe: hhalpin</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>FabGandon</cite>&gt; hhalpin: I'll try
    to join but can't promise, sorry.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ktk</cite>&gt; any sip available?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ktk</cite>&gt; hhalpin: k, will check
    irc then this time.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Chair: DKA</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Scribe: Harry</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ScribeNick: hhalpin</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yuk</cite>&gt; zakim +??P20 is yuk</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; well</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; forget it then</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>PROPOSED:</cite> Accept <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html</a>
    as a true record of our last meeting</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>ACCEPTED:</cite> <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html</a>
    are a true record of our last meeting</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; i just joined, zakim
    seems sleep</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; do we have invited
    speaker for meeting of May 19?</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>That is the most accurate</p>

    <p class='phone'>record of actions</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/open">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/open</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; what about spending
    a meeting on Social Web Frameworks (second edition) paper and
    preparations for the final XG report?</p>

    <p class='phone'>it seems that christine's update was the most
    interesting thing that happened over the last bit of time.</p>

    <p class='phone'>so I'd be happy to discuss that next week.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> We're doing an update on the
    final report</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; how will we
    integrate all the inputs from different groups which have been
    contributed over the past year?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (am i
    connected?)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; can we include this
    in the discussion about final XG report?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> we have a paper on XMPP from
    the OneSocialWeb work from vodafone<br />
    ... so we have running code<br />
    ... to let people set up their own node</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cperey:</cite> we could discuss the
    final report next meeting</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> XMLSpec</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; the story...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> the storyline of the final
    report must be discussed</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; the narrative</p>

    <p class='phone'>I'm happy to review that, although it's been
    discussed extensively in the past.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; yes, and not include
    the XMPP detailed discussion in that</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; is there a Table of
    Contents?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; hello all, sorry i
    am late</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I don't know the
    narrative so, I think we need another meeting on it</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>PROPOSED:</cite> next meeting to focus
    on final report?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; hi pgroth</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; nope</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; mischa</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; editorial
    meeting</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>ACCEPTED:</cite> Next meeting will focus
    on narrative and structure of final report</p>

    <h3 id="item01">Provenance and the Social Web with invited
    guest Paul Groth from Provenance XG.</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; hi</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ktk</cite>&gt; hi henry</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pgroth</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Social_Web">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Social_Web</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>pgroth:</cite> the best way to proceed
    is to take a look at the work we've done on the use-cases<br />
    ... we gathered a use-case at the provenance XG<br />
    ... does this reflect the work the issues from the Social Web
    XG?<br />
    ... talk about how we've organized the requirements in our
    XG<br />
    ... and if that captures what you guys think?<br />
    ... if you look at that site<br />
    ... we have a scenario about news aggregator<br />
    ... imagine a news aggregator (BlogAd) that integrates
    information from Twitter and blogs<br />
    ... to make a nice neat site, like an automated Huffington
    Post<br />
    ... the key question here is how to determine where it's
    content is coming from<br />
    ... the example we use is the trending topic on twitter<br />
    ... a tweet about pandas being moved from chicago to
    florida<br />
    ... so the aggregator wants to find information about it<br />
    ... the particular story should be aggregated<br />
    ... so we can track origin and give credit to the originator of
    the story<br />
    ... and we'd also like for the originator to maintain
    anonymity<br />
    ... not just republishing a tweet<br />
    ... but adding metadata to the tweet<br />
    ... follow the tinyURL on the tweet<br />
    ... might find an image of the panda<br />
    ... wants to display that image and figure out license
    associated with that image<br />
    ... and whether or not we can license that image from the
    re-use.<br />
    ... the originator of this panda tweet<br />
    ... may want to retract that information<br />
    ... and the blog aggregator should be able to determine<br />
    ... if someone has retracted information<br />
    ... or if someone dynamically wants to be dis-identified with a
    particular piece of information.<br />
    ... this is the broad outline, trying to outline.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; yes, makes
    sense</p>

    <p class='phone'>are there any technical solutions that could
    help solve this use-case?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; yes, the question we
    would like to have answered is "what are the types of
    technologies in Provenance used to solve issues such as set
    forth in this use case?"</p>

    <p class='phone'>I'm happy with your overview :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; can RDF, as defined
    in the rec without named graphs, be used to track provenance
    information from multiple sources?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; Open Provenance
    Model</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; Provenance
    vocabulary</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>pgroth:</cite> there are a number of
    open solutions</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; Provenance Mark up
    ???</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://open-biomed.sourceforge.net/opmv/ns.html">http://open-biomed.sourceforge.net/opmv/ns.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>pgroth:</cite> in particular, the OPM,
    the Provenance Markup Language (PML)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; Provenance Markup
    Language (PML)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>pgroth:</cite> and these solutions
    "represent" provenance<br />
    ... and there are then systems that *implement* the capture of
    provenance</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Vocabulary_Mappings">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/Provenance_Vocabulary_Mappings</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>pgroth:</cite> some involve
    instrumenting the actual operating system (PASS?)<br />
    ... other systems look at workflow engines, where workflow
    engines capture everything that happens<br />
    ... and then there are programming languages that have
    provenance libraries that can then capture the flow of the
    program<br />
    ... the hard part of all of these is that their isolated to one
    system<br />
    ... so there is no clear open system</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>paul</cite>&gt; Somewhat
    related:<a href=
    "http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=orms">http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=orms</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>pgroth:</cite> the common representation
    system<br />
    ... how do we instrument database system for capturing
    provenance?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>YolandaGil</cite>&gt; Paul: you may
    want to describe the overall framework for provenance that we
    have developed in the group: <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/User_Requirements#Requirements_for_Provenance_on_the_Web">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/wiki/User_Requirements#Requirements_for_Provenance_on_the_Web</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>pgroth:</cite> then the final work is
    formally understaning provenance<br />
    ... such as special operators for tracking provenance<br />
    ... but overall, we are still in the space of understanding the
    scenarios</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>YolandaGil</cite>&gt; I think the
    framework helps think about provenance issues. There is no
    comprehensive solution space for all these issues, only pockets
    of work.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; ?q</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> I'm struggling to get the
    social aspect of it<br />
    ... when your talking about assigining provenance which means
    that we have to identify the owner?<br />
    ... what are your options for identifying the owner, particular
    people, facets of people's identity?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>pgroth:</cite> alot of these solutions
    ground out in an identity framework<br />
    ... in the end, we have to know whose responsible for a
    particular item or entity<br />
    ... we need to ground out in identity<br />
    ... what that identity solution is should be more in social web
    space</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mischat:</cite> I have a question
    regarding the suitability of RDF as is<br />
    ... whether or not it can track provenance at all<br />
    ... are you contributing to the RDF next steps workshop?<br />
    ... are standardizing named graphs a good idea?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>pgroth:</cite> we submited a position
    paper<br />
    ... we didn't endorse any solution<br />
    ... but we came up with some existing solutions<br />
    ... that we thought were kinda of good</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>FabGandon</cite>&gt; by the way, we
    also submitted a paper on that subject <a href=
    "http://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Fabien.Gandon/docs/NameThatGraph/">
    http://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Fabien.Gandon/docs/NameThatGraph/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pgroth</cite>&gt; yolanda are you on
    the phone?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; you mean rdf/xml
    does not supprt named graphs. But it is in the semantics I
    believe (or else it would not be possible to do SPARQL)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> we have decided not to
    endorse a particular solution<br />
    ... we focussed on a few requirements<br />
    ... in particular<br />
    ... 3 major issues<br />
    ... 1) content of what you are presenting<br />
    ... 2) how do you manage provenance</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; what about trust of
    the source of provenance?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> 3) how do you use
    provenance (merging it)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; bblfish: n3 is not
    a rec as far as i am aware</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>FabGandon</cite>&gt; +1 to look at the
    many possibilities existing in the literature</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; rdf/xml is</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; Also I wonder if
    named graphs is needed on the publication side. If you want to
    say that something was written by someone you can say it quite
    easily &lt;<a href=
    "http://bblfish.net/%3E">http://bblfish.net/&gt;</a> a
    foaf:HomePage; dc:created &lt;<a href=
    "http://bblfish.net/poeple/henry/card#me%3E">http://bblfish.net/poeple/henry/card#me&gt;</a>
    .</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> we would be able to
    refer to groups and unions of triples<br />
    ... and tell whether or not two entities are the same or
    not<br />
    ... we also need to support evolution<br />
    ... as any artifact will change over time<br />
    ... this comes up in the retraction of tweets</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>FabGandon</cite>&gt; bblfish: RDF
    model doesn't have named graphs, RDF/XML does not have a syntax
    for that (as a matter of fact) only SPARQL has GRAPH and source
    primitives</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> the nature of the
    twitter<br />
    ... including any transforms of content in republishing<br />
    ... the last requirement is the support for entailment<br />
    ... some things you can't assert</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; the rdf semantics
    document speaks about graphs, merging them, etc… The rdf/xml
    syntax has a restriction, but that is something else</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; thanks FabGandon,
    and yes am aware of your namedgraph paper</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> so you could try to
    associate if someone like hhalpin said something, he is a w3c
    fellow, etc.<br />
    ... these are the three requirements<br />
    ... the two requirements that seemed relevant to baseline
    RDF<br />
    ... one needs to make provenance assertions<br />
    ... to publish a subset<br />
    ... of provenance records<br />
    ... I don't want to publish my name<br />
    ... but I don't mind publishing some characteristics, a
    position, an affliation, an insitution I'm at.<br />
    ... fifth requirement is querying<br />
    ... we want to bring up these issues.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; btw, for change
    over time, one could use the atom ontology <a href=
    "http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2006-06-06/AtomOwl.html">http://bblfish.net/work/atom-owl/2006-06-06/AtomOwl.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> so we did refer to
    particular solutions, such as named graphs</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>FabGandon</cite>&gt; mischat: one of
    the scenarios comes from Social Web and is called "Named graphs
    to embody the social act of tagging"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mischat:</cite> this is similar to what
    we've been talking about in the Social Web XG</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; he is</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>paul</cite>&gt; I'm on the line
    now</p>

    <p class='phone'>so now I'll summarize that</p>

    <p class='phone'>oh, perhaps you should speak up now paul!</p>

    <p class='phone'>Three main identity technologies we've been
    looking at</p>

    <p class='phone'>1) OpenID - see notes from meeting with Dick
    Hardt, still seems like things may be revised in vNext.</p>

    <p class='phone'>2) WebID - using SSL plus FOAF, see notes from
    meeting with Henry Story</p>

    <p class='phone'>3) Infocards - see work on Higgins project, no
    meeting with them yet, but hoping to get one soon!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; Thomas and our
    chair Dan are hosting a privacy related workshop in london
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/api-privacy-ws/">http://www.w3.org/2010/api-privacy-ws/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cperey:</cite> how do you manage
    trust<br />
    ... verify it, source it, etc.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> there is one underlying
    model of provenance<br />
    ... possibly a very long chain, following all these tweets and
    blogs<br />
    ... around all these tweets and blogs</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.eclipse.org/higgins/">http://www.eclipse.org/higgins/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Also note that the
    OneSocialWeb/XMPP work represents another model for
    identity...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; higgin's project ^^
    ?</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgins_project">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgins_project</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> from our work, we seem to
    think trust is very subjective</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; trust is subjective,
    a judgement, about if an entity is reliable, etc</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> if a particular entity or
    assertion is reliable/believable</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> so we think of trust as
    one of the uses of provenance<br />
    ... so we have separated the scope of our group<br />
    ... and so we hope that many different approaches (like using
    social nets, algorithms) to derive and propagate trust over
    adequate provenance information.<br />
    ... whether or not we trust particular provenance
    assertions<br />
    ... is where signatures and authentication come in.</p>

    <p class='phone'>(notes that otherwise things get circular,
    i.e. we have to trust provenance in order to build trust!)</p>

    <p class='phone'>(so we need some grounding out...)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I took my turn
    :-)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>fabien:</cite> happy to hear the
    provenance xg that there are many options<br />
    ... so we are happy to see group wants to keep option
    open<br />
    ... such as pat hayes' surface proposal, an alternative to
    named graphs</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://eclipse.org/higgins/">http://eclipse.org/higgins/</a>
    Higgins projects : Personal Data Store (exciting), Identity
    Services, and Active Client</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>fabien:</cite> as far as I'm concerned,
    we used the use-case<br />
    ... of the social web xg in our paper<br />
    ... so we want to embody the act of social tagging<br />
    ... and we wanted to use named graphs in social tagging</p>

    <p class='phone'>(note that we also need to have a session
    discussing tagging, i.e. CommonTag and NiceTag work!)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>paulgroth:</cite> we're a bit newer than
    the Social Web XG<br />
    ... so we're just starting to look at technical space of
    work</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://iswc2009.semanticweb.org/wiki/index.php/ISWC_2009_Keynote/Pat_Hayes">
    http://iswc2009.semanticweb.org/wiki/index.php/ISWC_2009_Keynote/Pat_Hayes</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>YolandaGil</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>paulgroth:</cite> identity is a really
    important part of grounding out</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; ?q</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; paul: are you from
    the higgins project?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; pgroth: =
    provenance xg</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; can't hear harry
    anymore</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>paul</cite>&gt; +q</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>paul</cite>&gt; I talk, but nobody can
    hear me</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; what happened?</p>

    <p class='phone'>?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; hehe</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; yes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; ye</p>

    <p class='phone'>yes we can hear you!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; it was very
    interesting</p>

    <p class='phone'>sorry, there was a mute button on, due to
    keyboard clacking issues towards beginning of telecon.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> the space is still
    evolving<br />
    ... we are starting on OpenID vNext</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.sociallipstick.com/?p=239">http://www.sociallipstick.com/?p=239</a>
    is an interesting read, w.r.t. oauth2 as a foundation for
    openidng</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> but of course WebID and
    FOAF stuff is less mainstream</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; there's a train</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; that's the sound of
    foaf+ssl leaving the station :-)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Any perspective on
    XMPP-based identity out there?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Paul:</cite> it will be interesting to
    see for us<br />
    ... what the Social Web XG figures out<br />
    ... so we're trying to figure out<br />
    ... from the space of current provenance work connects the
    existing social web technologies<br />
    ... alot of our technology comes from different spaces</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>paul</cite>&gt; -q</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>paulgroth:</cite> a lot of work from
    databases and workflows</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> I wish I had better
    news<br />
    ... the identity community is struggling with its own internal
    fragmentation<br />
    ... the general belief is that provenance and reputation have a
    pre-condition of reliable identity</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>YolandaGil</cite>&gt; I agree!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>paul:</cite> which I think is consistent
    with what the provenance xg is saying</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; ?q</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>paulgroth:</cite> the ability to embed
    this data<br />
    ... so we could embed it in header of image<br />
    ... and the whole notion of signatures<br />
    ... that is part of this story<br />
    ... but we haven't actually finished this off</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> the only thing I would
    want to say<br />
    ... is that we've been trying to understand what different
    groups want<br />
    ... so when we met with harry at WWW2010 conference<br />
    ... there was some requirements that were new from the Social
    Web XG use-cases<br />
    ... in particular, the deletion of records in a social
    networking site</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; hehe, and for
    reasoning :)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> and what that has to do
    with provenance</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; is there a problem
    with the bridge? or ...</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1 good point mischat</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I"m back :-)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> there are aspects that
    we haven't considered.<br />
    ... so if we hope to address all your requirements in our
    document<br />
    ... all of us are very aware that we need to present
    solution-space, not just requirement-space</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; agree also that this
    applies to SWXG work!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mischat:</cite> the whole concept of
    reasoning<br />
    ... there is this notion of inferred triples<br />
    ... we don't do reasoning in our triple store as we update and
    delete data constantly<br />
    ... does the XG deal with entailment/reasoning in dynamic
    knowledge-bases?<br />
    ... should I be putting all my inferred triples in the
    ontology</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> entailment is one of the
    big issues in the RDF next step papers<br />
    ... absolutely definitely the case<br />
    ... no record will be exhaustive or complete</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; FabGandon, you wanted
    to ask about multiple provenances in reasonning</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; pgroth: ?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>FabienGandon:</cite> Can I combine
    provenance from multiple sources?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; multiple personas
    online :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; "Beatnik: Change
    your mind" a simple blog post I wrote about trust <a href=
    "http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/beatnik_change_your_mind">http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/beatnik_change_your_mind</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yolanda:</cite> so different provenances
    from different repositories</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; yay</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; media standards
    trusts are looking at as far as i am aware</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; provenance in newss
    is a dream</p>

    <p class='phone'>Meeting Adjourned</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; thank you!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pgroth</cite>&gt; yeah provenance in
    news is good</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt;
    www.mediastandardstrust.org/projects.aspx</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pgroth</cite>&gt; thanks everyone</p>

    <p class='phone'>Next call - final report narrative!!</p>

    <p class='phone'>trackbot, end meeting</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; thanks</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; bye bye pgroth</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
    $Date: 2010/05/12 16:08:59 $
  </address>

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    <hr />

    <h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
    before finalizing the minutes.]<br />
    <pre>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/</a>

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/2/ng/
Succeeded: s/is new/in news/
Found Scribe: hhalpin
Inferring ScribeNick: hhalpin
Found Scribe: Harry
Found ScribeNick: hhalpin
Scribes: hhalpin, Harry
Default Present: +1.781.416.aaaa, hhalpin, +0774811aabb, DKA, MacTed, yoshiaki, Yolanda, melvster, cperey, +0773779aadd, +0752818aaee, mischat
Present: +1.781.416.aaaa hhalpin +0774811aabb DKA MacTed yoshiaki Yolanda melvster cperey +0773779aadd +0752818aaee mischat
Found Date: 12 May 2010
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/05/12-swxg-minutes.html</a>
People with action items:

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    scribe.perl</a> diagnostic output]
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