09-mediafrag-minutes.html
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<title>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference -- 09 Sep
2009</title>
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<h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>
<h2>09 Sep 2009</h2>
<p><a href=
'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0025.html'>
Agenda</a></p>
<p>See also: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>Michael, Raphael, Yves, Wonsuk, Silvia(irc), Erik</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dd>Davy, Conrad</dd>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>Erik/Raphael</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>raphael</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">1. ADMIN</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">2. UC & REQUIREMENTS:</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">3. SPECIFICATION</a></li>
<li><a href="#item04">4. TEST CASES</a></li>
<li><a href="#item05">5. ISSUES</a></li>
<li><a href="#item06">6. AOB</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='phone'> </p>
<p class='phone'> </p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 09 September
2009</p>
<p class='phone'>Regret+ Jack</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> Scribe: raphael</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> scribenick:
raphael</p>
<p class='phone'>Informal discussion about the syntax of the
Range unit syntax</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> can we have multiple
values in the Acept-Ranges ?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> yes, comma separated</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> I would also suggest to
use the cue-values, like the accept header<br />
... for example, I accept npt with 0.8 and smpte-30 with
0.2</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> makes less sense [I didn't
get why]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> <<</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> The response-header
"Accept-Ranges" field allows the server to</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> indicate its
acceptance of range requests for a resource:</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> >></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> but then, what does it
mean, they are equal ?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> yes, the server decides</p>
<h3 id="item01">1. ADMIN</h3>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'>PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 02
September 2009 telecon</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'><a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>+1</p>
<p class='phone'>Minutes accepted</p>
<p class='phone'>Virtual F2F meeting: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FourthF2FAgenda">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FourthF2FAgenda</a></p>
<p class='phone'><a href=
"http://www.doodle.com/xbw9stfdmz3pr4nw">http://www.doodle.com/xbw9stfdmz3pr4nw</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Unfortunately:</cite> for the meeting,
Jack will not make it and Yves is at risk</p>
<p class='phone'>Jack will be on irc</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>ALL:</cite> please, complete the agenda
with background reading material to prepare the meeting</p>
<h3 id="item02">2. UC & REQUIREMENTS:</h3>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-95?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-95 --
Michael Hausenblas to review ALL UC with a mobile hat on and
check whether these sufficiently cover the mobile usage -- due
2009-09-02 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/95">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/95</a></p>
<p class='phone'>-- continue</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-101?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-101 -- Yves
Lafon to write a UC describing the use of aspect ratio feature
and thus motivating its usage -- due 2009-09-02 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/101">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/101</a></p>
<p class='phone'>close ACTION-101</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-101 Write a
UC describing the use of aspect ratio feature and thus
motivating its usage closed</p>
<p class='phone'>We received 3 reviews from MAWG</p>
<p class='phone'><a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Sep/0008.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Sep/0008.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'><a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Sep/0012.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Sep/0012.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'><a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Sep/0013.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2009Sep/0013.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>Werner to introduce other units such as
smpte-50 and smpte-60</p>
<p class='phone'>Nobody against ?</p>
<p class='phone'>[silence]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> ok with this, (but we
should avoid explosion of units)</p><a name="action01" id=
"action01"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> raphael to address all comments and
write a reply to MAWG [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Sorry, couldn't
find user - raphael</p>
<p class='phone'>trackbot, status</p><a name="action02" id=
"action02"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphaël to address all comments and
write a reply to MAWG [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Could not create
new action - please contact sysreq with the details of what
happened.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> should we have also a
paragraph, directed to the MPEG-21 community why we are doing
that?</p><a name="action03" id="action03"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphaël to draft a paragraph
explaining upfront in the document why we are doing that ...
justification for the MPEG community [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Could not create
new action - please contact sysreq with the details of what
happened.</p><a name="action04" id="action04"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Troncy to draft a paragraph explaining
upfront in the document why we are doing that ... justification
for the MPEG community [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Could not create
new action - please contact sysreq with the details of what
happened.</p>
<p class='phone'>Good we have finally one review of our
document from a WG</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> I will contact TAG once
more<br />
... and tell them our current design choice regarding the use
of ? when transcoding is necessary</p>
<h3 id="item03">3. SPECIFICATION</h3>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-103?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-103 --
Silvia Pfeiffer to write a paragraph in our 2 documents, most
likely within the Terminology sections, explaining that when we
say URI, we mean URI Ref -- due 2009-09-09 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/103">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/103</a></p>
<p class='phone'>close ACTION-103</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-103 Write a
paragraph in our 2 documents, most likely within the
Terminology sections, explaining that when we say URI, we mean
URI Ref closed</p>
<p class='phone'>Silvia has proposed a paragraph</p>
<p class='phone'>Raphael has slightly updated it, now present
in the 2 documents</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-49?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-49 -- Yves
Lafon to draft the HTTP-Range syntax for different units
(completing all the syntax for the two way handshake) -- due
2009-09-02 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/49">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/49</a></p>
<p class='phone'>close ACTION-49</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-49 Draft
the HTTP-Range syntax for different units (completing all the
syntax for the two way handshake) closed</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> my proposal is to re-use
the same kind of syntax than for bytes<br />
... for the Range header: Range: <timeformat> '='
<start time> - <end time><br />
... and for the Content-Range header<br />
... Content-Range: <timeformat> ' ' <real start
time> '-' <real end time> '/' <total
duration><br />
... since we are not using '-' and '/' in our syntax, it is
safe<br />
... there are a number of things to do ... register some units,
such as npt, smpte-30, etc.</p>
<p class='phone'>One issue: the duration for some unit might
not be easy to define</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> would welcome the opinion
of Jack and Davy</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> I have proposed also
another solution, more flexible, but a bit more complex<br />
... we could then mix units (bad?) but it solves the duration
problem</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> issue is when you are
requesting a fragment of a smpte-indexed video</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> if the beginning of
the file is not 0:0:0.0</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> then you have an issue
expressing duration</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> (if you use the same
unit)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> I think that smpte
information is embedded in the file</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-69?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-69 --
Conrad Parker to draw a representation of the general structure
of a media resource, for streamable formats (H/H' + K + D1 + D2
+ D3) -- due 2009-04-24 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/69">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/69</a></p>
<p class='phone'>I will chase Conrad, we need this picture</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-104?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-104 -- Yves
Lafon to start a thread on the mailing list to summarize the
state of the discussion regarding ? and # (? when transcoding
happening, #for other cases) + use of URI template for ? -- due
2009-09-09 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/104">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/104</a></p>
<p class='phone'>close ACTION-104</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-104 Start a
thread on the mailing list to summarize the state of the
discussion regarding ? and # (? when transcoding happening,
#for other cases) + use of URI template for ? closed</p>
<p class='phone'>A long thread has started</p>
<p class='phone'>only Silvia and I have answered so far</p>
<p class='phone'><a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0016.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Sep/0016.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> having 2 ways for
expressing the same thing might make the standard too complex
to implement<br />
... for me, a fragment is definitively a 'hash'<br />
... needs to have another thought</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> same here, we need to
discuss it with Davy</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I will put that upfront
on the agenda, with background reading, so everybody must have
an opinion</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> We have to accept the
definitions of URIs where a fragment has a specific meaning</p>
<p class='phone'>I agree</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> if some of the
operations that we require on media documents do not fall under
this definition, we cannot do it with fragments</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> it is not our choice
to redefine URI fragments and queries</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> the problem is that the
specific meaning for fragments is loosely defined
currently<br />
... and up to many interpretations</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> not really</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> nessy, why
not?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> thus the open question
to the TAG group</p>
<p class='phone'>Summary on protocol issue: <a href=
"http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/08/uri-fragments-vs-uri-queries-for-media-fragment-addressing/">
http://blog.gingertech.net/2009/09/08/uri-fragments-vs-uri-queries-for-media-fragment-addressing/</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> it clearly states
that it is relates to a primary resource</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> "The fragment
identifier component of a URI allows indirect</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> identification of a
secondary resource by reference to a primary</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> resource and
additional identifying information."</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> quoted from <a href=
"http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt">http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3986.txt</a></p>
<p class='phone'>The problem is that we DON'T know if when you
do transcoding, this is part or not of the primary resource</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> a transcoded resource
is not identical to the primary resource</p>
<h3 id="item04">4. TEST CASES</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> have hack corrib,
<a href=
"http://ld2sd.deri.org/corrib/">http://ld2sd.deri.org/corrib/</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> where do you have this
statement written?</p>
<p class='phone'>"a transcoded resource is not identical to the
primary resource" <- needs a ref :-)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> it's in the nature of
what a URI is</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> motivation, have a
collaborative tool to directly generate the test cases in RDF
... instead of editing on wiki and then do a manual
conversion</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> different transcoded
representations have to be different resources</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> what you say is
appealing, but needs to be defined somewhere</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> and in particular, where
to define the border?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> so, if the primary
resource is addressed by <a href=
"http://example.com/xxx">http://example.com/xxx</a> , how do
you address the transcoded resource?</p>
<p class='phone'>is the black and white version of an image a
different resource and not part of the primary version?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> I can only think of
two ways of doing it: <a href=
"http://example.com/yyy">http://example.com/yyy</a> or <a href=
"http://example.com/xxx?transcode">http://example.com/xxx?transcode</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> yes</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> even if the server
creates the black and white version on the fly, it still
requires a different URI to tell the server to create it</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>mhausenblas</cite>> see <a href=
"http://ld2sd.deri.org/corrib/mftc.rdf">http://ld2sd.deri.org/corrib/mftc.rdf</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> we know that even
trying to identify the same resource in different
representations for different languages hasn't worked and
people generally use index.en.html and index.de.html etc</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> silvia, one could argue
this is a different representation of the same resource, just
degraded, that could be serve with the same URI<br />
... Silvia, not in the SW world, and honnestly, content
negotiation based on languages is very widely deployed on the
web nowadays</p><a name="action05" id="action05"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Michael to add the missing test cases
in corrib [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-108
- Add the missing test cases in corrib [on Michael Hausenblas -
due 2009-09-16].</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> but please, all, you
should give it a try</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-93?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-93 --
Michael Hausenblas to revisit the TC and see which are effected
by the temporal-optional-comma-decision -- due 2009-07-29 --
OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/93">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/93</a></p>
<p class='phone'>-- continue</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>nessy</cite>> Accept-Language is
part of http - there is no content negotiation for transcoding
defined in http, so it can only work through query parameters
with the current web</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> I will add line number
but not explicitely number for TC by next week<br />
... and I will complete my actions</p>
<h3 id="item05">5. ISSUES</h3>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-82?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-82 --
Michael Hausenblas to flesh out TC vocabulary re ISSUE-9 -- due
2009-07-31 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/82">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/82</a></p>
<p class='phone'>-- continue (still)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> but it is easier now
that Corrib is in place</p>
<p class='phone'>close ACTION-82</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-82 Flesh
out TC vocabulary re ISSUE-9 closed</p>
<p class='phone'>we don't need it anymore</p>
<p class='phone'>but the iSSUE remains open</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> Davy is wroking on his
action and it will be ready for next week</p>
<h3 id="item06">6. AOB</h3>
<p class='phone'>[silence]</p>
<p class='phone'>no telecon next week but the virtual f2f</p>
<p class='phone'>I think i know why I cannot have anymore AP,
maybe because i have changed affiliation</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Michael to add
the missing test cases in corrib [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> raphael to
address all comments and write a reply to MAWG [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphaël to
address all comments and write a reply to MAWG [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Raphaël to draft
a paragraph explaining upfront in the document why we are doing
that ... justification for the MPEG community [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Troncy to draft a
paragraph explaining upfront in the document why we are doing
that ... justification for the MPEG community [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/09-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />
<br />
[End of minutes]<br />
<hr />
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Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
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$Date: 2009/09/09 13:07:16 $
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