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  <title>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference -- 12 Aug
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  <h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>

  <h2>12 Aug 2009</h2>

  <p>See also: <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd>Yves, Davy, Erik, Silvia, Michael, Raphael</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dd>Jack</dd>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>Erik</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>Silvia</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">1. ADMIN</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item02">2. UC &amp; REQUIREMENTS</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item03">3. SPECIFICATION</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item04">AOB</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">
    <p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>

    <p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 12 August
    2009</p>

    <p class='phone'>aacc is silvia</p>

    <h3 id="item01">1. ADMIN</h3>

    <p class='phone'>* Roll call</p>

    <p class='phone'>regrets from Guillaume and Conrad</p>

    <p class='phone'>* PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 15
    &amp; 22 July 2009 telecon:</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/07/15-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/07/22-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/07/22-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'>* ACTION-92: Erik and Raphael to coordinate
    the writing of papers (ongoing ? re-raise around 15/09/09)</p>

    <h3 id="item02">2. UC &amp; REQUIREMENTS</h3>

    <p class='phone'>* ACTION-68: Raphael to ask the Media
    Annotations WG to review our document</p>

    <p class='phone'>there are actions on the MA WG chair - Raphael
    will follow up</p>

    <p class='phone'>* To be discussed: Live Streaming UC (see Mail
    Silvia ? <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jul/0028.html)">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jul/0028.html)</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; I will also ask
    this Friday at the HCG telecon</p>

    <p class='phone'>there are actually two questions:</p>

    <p class='phone'>* procedural question - how to extend the use
    cases document</p>

    <p class='phone'>* technical discussion</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>raphael:</cite> likes the extension, but
    we need to clarify<br />
    ... difference between query and hash<br />
    ... need to have a complete specification<br />
    ... procedure: just write the specification and commit
    it</p><a name="action01" id="action01"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> silvia to write specification for
    streaming use case [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-94
    - Write specification for streaming use case [on Silvia
    Pfeiffer - due 2009-08-19].</p>

    <p class='phone'>general agreement to the use case</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mhausenblas:</cite> did you have a
    mobile use case to it?<br />
    ... there may be additional requirements around requirements on
    resources for media addressing<br />
    ... mobile area is a good selling point for media fragment
    use<br />
    ... I will keep this in mind an highlight it if we need more
    requirements around this</p>

    <h3 id="item03">3. SPECIFICATION</h3>

    <p class='phone'>3.1 Syntax: (Yves)</p>

    <p class='phone'>* ACTION-49: Yves to Draft the HTTP-Range
    syntax for different units</p>

    <p class='phone'>(completing all the syntax for the two way
    handshake) (ongoing ? re-raise around 15/08/09, after IETF
    Meeting)</p><a name="action02" id="action02"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> michael to review the new UC written
    by Silvia and check whether it will cover a mobile usage
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-95
    - Review the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will
    cover a mobile usage [on Michael Hausenblas - due
    2009-08-19].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> reports on IETF meeting and
    extension of HTTP-Range syntax</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Scribe: Silvia</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> progress is made and once
    it's agreed, it should be ratified by IANA</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; scribenick:
    silvia</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> have more info by the end
    of the month</p>

    <p class='phone'>(re-raise around 30/08/09)</p>

    <p class='phone'>* ACTION-93: Michael to revisit the TC and see
    which are affected by the temporal-optional-comma-decision</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mhausenblas:</cite> was discussion on
    temporal-optional-comma-decision finalised?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jul/0038.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Jul/0038.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>Franck made a counter-proposal</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> the trailing comma is not
    giving us anything useful<br />
    ... I am fine with this proposal</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; we are discussion
    Frank's proposal: remove case 2 and 4 which are redondant</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> happy with this proposal
    - it removes the option to specify the same case in two
    different ways</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; +1 with this
    proposal</p>

    <p class='phone'>Yves is happy to change the grammar in the
    specification</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; +1</p><a name=
    "action03" id="action03"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Yves to make change to
    temporal-optional-comma specification [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-96
    - Make change to temporal-optional-comma specification [on Yves
    Lafon - due 2009-08-19].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'>we now have working group agreement on this
    specification</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='phone'>Yves will reply to Franck</p>

    <p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: the
    working group agrees to the temporal-optional-comma
    specification proposed by Franck</strong></p>

    <p class='phone'>3.2 UA Server HTTP Communication
    (Conrad/Raphael)</p>

    <p class='phone'>* ACTION-69: Conrad to draw a representation
    of the general structure of</p>

    <p class='phone'>a media resource, for streamable formats
    (ongoing ? re-raise around 01/09/09, when having had full
    discussion)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; ongoing</p>

    <p class='phone'>raphael will follow up on this thread</p>

    <p class='phone'>4. TEST CASES: (Michael)</p>

    <p class='phone'>* See: <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/TestCases</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TC0002:</cite> empty time segment -
    npt</p>

    <p class='phone'>empty time segment</p>

    <p class='phone'>e.g. #t=0,0</p>

    <p class='phone'>416, would yield an empty resource, hence
    client must have erred</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: TC0002
    is approved</strong></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TC0003:</cite> empty space segment</p>

    <p class='phone'>empty space segment</p>

    <p class='phone'>e.g. #xywh=0,0,0,0</p>

    <p class='phone'>416, would yield an empty resource, hence
    client must have erred</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: TC0003
    is approved</strong></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TC0004:</cite> empty space segment -
    aspect</p>

    <p class='phone'>empty space segment - aspect</p>

    <p class='phone'>#aspect=0:0</p>

    <p class='phone'>416, would yield an empty resource, hence
    client must have erred</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Yves; no
    restriction on the values except they must be integers</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... many ratio out
    there already, and more can be proposed later on</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; +1 for current
    proposal</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> capturing all the
    restrictions in the syntax itself is not necessary</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: TC0004
    is approved</strong></p>

    <p class='phone'>--</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TC0005:</cite> empty track segment</p>

    <p class='phone'>empty track segment</p>

    <p class='phone'>e.g. #track="" (I think)</p>

    <p class='phone'>416, would yield an empty resource, hence
    client must have erred</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> should it not rather mean
    the whole resource?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; I agree TC0005 is
    similar to TC0001</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> selection is based on
    nothing defined, so it is similar to TC0001 and should be
    all</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mhausenblas:</cite> is there an
    implementation yet?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Michael: search for
    implementation in the real world of the track thing. Does that
    exist at all?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> don't think so<br />
    ... it's more a theoretical experiment right now</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mhausenblas:</cite> if there are none,
    we are free to specify</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; For consistency, I
    would prefer to have the same behavior than TC0001</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; postpone ?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mhausenblas:</cite> I hesitate to
    propose to resolve it without more empirical experience</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; We can look at what
    DVD players do ... when a command parameter ask to play a dvd
    with an empty track name</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... my guess is
    that the default language is used ... and not err</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> let's look at it from a
    programmer pov - if I composed it through a tick list and no
    tracks were ticked, I'd probably expect all tracks to be
    delivered</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Correction, re
    TC0005</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Proposal: 200, the
    entire representation is returned</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'>--</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>TC0006:</cite> empty named segment</p>

    <p class='phone'>e.g. #id="" (I think)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>currently:</cite> 416, would yield an
    empty resource, hence client must have erred</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> we should apply the same
    logic as with TC0005</p>

    <p class='phone'>general agreement</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Proposal: 200, the
    entire representation is returned</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Raphael notes that
    Silvia abstain and does not +1 on TC005</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Raphael notes that
    Silvia abstain and does not +1 on TC0006 (oups)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; we should probably
    revisit 07</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; as the definition of
    "empty" is different depending on the axis</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; Yves, TC0007?
    Really?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; Should we add more
    Test Cases when there is an ID (or a Track) ... but not defined
    in the video</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> is considering the
    comparison between empty id and and id that doesn't exist<br />
    ... but they are different</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> we should add a test case
    for non-existing ID<br />
    ... but when no ID is specified, it should refer to the full
    resource</p>

    <p class='phone'>--</p>

    <p class='phone'>revisit TC0007</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> since #t=, now refers to
    the full resource, we should revisit TC0007</p>

    <p class='phone'>#t=,&amp;id='ID0'</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; What about if you
    replace your input by: "#xywh=0,0,0,0&amp;t=,"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> should now refer to the
    named fragment ID0</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; For now, can we
    change the status of TC0007 from approved to un-reviewed ?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Proposal:</cite> 200, return
    representation for named fragment ID0</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; ... but keep the
    previous agreement in the record</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> can we add the new
    proposal then?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>davy</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; adding
    TC10mwith #t=0,0&amp;id='ID0'</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Michael:</cite> add a new test case 10,
    which captures the former intention of TC0007</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; and return 416
    for TC10</p>

    <p class='phone'>this new test case will read
    #t=0,0&amp;id='ID0'</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; +1 for michael
    proposal to add TC0010 ... I have also used before the example
    with an empty space segment</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; same for non
    existing track name ... non existing id</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; so we need TC0011
    and TC0012</p>

    <p class='phone'>adding a new test case TC0011 for non-existing
    id</p>

    <p class='phone'>e.g. #id="none"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; RESOLUTION: TC0005
    is approved</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; RESOLUTION: TC0006
    is approved</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>reply:</cite> 416, would yield an empty
    resource, hence client must have erred</p>

    <p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: TC0005
    is approved</strong><br />
    ... TC0006 is approved<br />
    ... TC0007 to be changed as discussed<br />
    ... TC010, TC011, TC012 to be added as discussed</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> we have run out of
    time<br />
    ... thanks everyone</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; great job,
    silvia!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; +1 to Yves
    proposal!!!!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mhausenblas</cite>&gt; ;)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>yves</cite>&gt; bye, zakim</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; :-)</p>

    <h3 id="item04">AOB</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; none</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>raphael</cite>&gt; meeting
    adjourned</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> michael to review
  the new UC written by Silvia and check whether it will cover a
  mobile usage [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> silvia to write
  specification for streaming use case [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Yves to make
  change to temporal-optional-comma specification [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/08/12-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />

  &nbsp;<br />
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

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