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  <h1>- DRAFT -</h1>

  <h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>

  <h2>21 Apr 2010</h2>

  <p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-irc">IRC
  log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd>MacTed, +95177aaaa, pchampin, DKA, +049172247aabb,
      yoshiaki, melvster, Anita, hhalpin, rreck</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>Harry</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>Dan</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">Action reminders</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item02">request from Jeff.</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item03">Proposals for lightweight process
        changes</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">
    <p class='phone'></p>

    <p class='phone'></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 21 April
    2010</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; but why don't you
    see anyone on channel?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; hhalpin - I've told
    trackbot to start the meeting, and RRSAgent and Zakim are doing
    their things ... except that Zakim doesn't seem to see anyone
    on channel, only on the phone...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Hi all.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; can hear you</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; trackbot, start
    meeting</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Meeting: Social
    Web Incubator Group Teleconference</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 21 April
    2010</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Can't chair - but could
    scribe.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Scribe: Dan</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ScribeNick: DKA</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> Jeff Jaffee is very
    interested in [process changes?] in w3c. Hoping we can come to
    consensus on some of these issues.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Harry can you share the link?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; IP caller?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>yoshiaki</cite>&gt; +yoshiaki; got
    it</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Approve
    minutes?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 approve</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> +1</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Minutes from April
    14th approved</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> next week should we cancel
    the meeting (because of www2010)?</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1 for canceling</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i could be here</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; -1 canceling</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AnitaD</cite>&gt; -1 I cant make
    it</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Next meeting
    cancelled</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; But resume as
    normal with policy language discussions and information
    cards</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>yoshiaki</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; for the first
    Wednesday in May</p>

    <p class='phone'>Next meeting - may 5th</p>

    <h3 id="item01">Action reminders</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think the first wed
    in May is the 5th</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> Please check all your
    actions [and report on status to the mailing list]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/open">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/open</a></p>

    <h3 id="item02">request from Jeff.</h3>

    <h3 id="item03">Proposals for lightweight process changes</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; scribenick:
    hhalpin</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> there is a proposal called
    W3C outpost thought up by DKA<br />
    ... and Robin Berjon</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: Jeff would like
    to get approval for some proposals of opening up W3c at next
    TPAc (in November).</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: To be discussed
    at www2010.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/03/outposts-proposal-snapshot.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/03/outposts-proposal-snapshot.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; That is the outposts
    proposal.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Most of the work done
    by Robin, to be clear.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> How can W3C help these
    efforts?<br />
    ... efforts like OMB, Salmon Protocol, how can we help these
    efforts<br />
    ... pose the question that way, as opposed to why these efforts
    aren't happening at W3C<br />
    ... which is different than saying what's the problem, W3C is
    the answer<br />
    ... the point of this proposal<br />
    ... is for the W3C to provide tools and basic templates<br />
    ... high quality tools like issue tracking, actions, IRC
    channels, stuff like trackbot<br />
    ... and provide this as a kind of package with minimal staff
    impact<br />
    ... provide some kind of IPR for efforts<br />
    ... often the intention is to release it royalty-free, but
    there's issues with understanding tricky legal issues re
    copyright, open source<br />
    ... so W3C could provide these tools and processes<br />
    ... so that fledgling efforts could use them<br />
    ... with minimal effort, like making the XG process even
    easier<br />
    ... so we don't even have W3C members at all.<br />
    ... just one W3C member as a suggestor, not even a
    sponsor<br />
    ... the Outpost proposal is to see how W3C proposal could help
    these efforts around<br />
    ... so we had this discussion at the AC meeting.<br />
    ... so we had another discussion about how W3C standards can be
    fed to ISO groups<br />
    ... and so make them "real" standards in the very formal sense
    of the word<br />
    ... as W3C standards are actually recommendations<br />
    ... so the point is at least 2 individuals from 2 different
    companies<br />
    ... can then make a roadmap between that kind of work and ISO
    standardization<br />
    ... in helping to bridge that gap.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: any
    questions?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; good idea</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; definitely good
    idea</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>yoshiaki</cite>&gt; good idea</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; good idea
    indeed</p>

    <p class='phone'>Community Group?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: 2 points - good
    idea, I worry about the name "outposts" - sounds like w3c
    colonising... rather than helping people.</p>

    <p class='phone'>ah, an embassy in another realm</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> to be the opposite of
    colonization<br />
    ... it should have a different identity<br />
    ... different website<br />
    ... to prevent developers etc. from being alienated<br />
    ... including academic sheen<br />
    ... the point of the name is to sound cool</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> We need a better
    communication<br />
    ... W3C standards aren't really standards, they're
    Recommendations<br />
    ... origins were in trying to unify and stop failure of
    interoperability<br />
    ... the browser wars</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: I think that's
    more likely to happen with a better communications effort. As
    you say, W3C standards aren't really standards. Their origins
    were in efforts to aid interoperability.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: as things have
    been evolving, they are shifting towards forward thinking...
    that's a different thing?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: how could the
    suggestion be advertised differently?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: Opening
    processes is definitely useful. Don't know about "outposts" as
    a brand. Most of the summary sounds likes a win.</p>

    <p class='phone'>W3C Frontier?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: ...but in the
    same space, creating a new space doesn't necessarily changes
    the perception about w3c. If there are perceptions against w3c
    then let's change that. Maybe "W3C Frontier" would make more
    sense?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: idea makes sense
    to me. I don't like the word "frontier" either.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; (I like "frontier" as
    well... :) )</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: I had a
    conversation with Facebook. Asked them - why are you using
    things like google groups - maybe google isn't a neutral 3rd
    party? The response I got: we would be happy to use a w3c list
    but [too difficult].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: another point
    made by fb - the login. If you use a google group, most people
    have a google account so easy to log in...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; [low friction]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; I agree</p>

    <p class='phone'>ah I see!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; variant: I have
    one google account, and people keep inviting me to google docs
    on another address, which I do not want to register in my
    google account</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: I have 2 google
    accounts - it's very difficult to manage that in that
    situation...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; openID....</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; but I agree: this
    makes it easier for many people</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; foaf+ssl ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; yes to both :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: different
    issues in different places... If the pain they're trying to
    solve is - having an account in w3c space - you've got to have
    some kind of account if there's going to be moderation...</p>

    <p class='phone'>add easy comments via a webform.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: Google groups
    also uses a blog-like interface where you can add comments very
    easily...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: That's an
    interface issue - we could do the same ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; im not sure its that
    appealing</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: any other
    comments on outposts or on opening up w3c?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: Other
    comments...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; if i have to ask
    someone if they know what w3c is, and they answer 'no' there is
    little point in explaining</p>

    <p class='phone'>perceived formality of many things?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: One offputting
    thing about w3c is the perceived formality - the perceived
    formal process which can be very offputting if you don't know
    what it is.</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/Submission/">http://www.w3.org/Submission/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: one of the other
    issues that has been made. Are people familiar with the w3c
    member submission process?</p>

    <p class='phone'>Public Submissions process?</p>

    <p class='phone'>Which takes submissions from the general
    public</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: If you make a
    spec - you can submit it to w3c as a member submission but only
    if you are a member. Another idea is a "public submission
    process" which takes submissions from the general public.</p>

    <p class='phone'>a separate index and formatting from actual
    member submissions and Rec-track work</p>

    <p class='phone'>get a Team comment</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: would allow
    people who already developed something to submit...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: as the web has
    grown so exponentially it's difficult for Tim [or anyone else}
    to know what's going on everywhere. So this is one way to allow
    suggestions from all over...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: That seems like
    a reinvention of rfc...</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://perens.com/Articles/PatentFarming.html">http://perens.com/Articles/PatentFarming.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>is basically patent policy</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: it is, but with
    a difference - difference between ietf and w3c is patent
    policy.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; honestly, IMHO, this
    sounds more like a hammer looking for a nail than a nail that
    needs a hammer</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; "W3C: Bringing hammers
    and nails together since 1992"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; heh</p>

    <p class='phone'>levels of membership?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: perhaps there's
    a question of levels of membership.</p>

    <p class='phone'>no, besides invited experts</p>

    <p class='phone'>precisely, and jeff himself is interested in
    this space now</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Let's revisit the reasons
    we're interested in.<br />
    ... we need to be really careful about saying that the answer
    must be W3C<br />
    ... so whether or not these assets that W3C brings to the
    table<br />
    ... can make these benefits available to fledgling efforts who
    think<br />
    ... they may not need the level of W3C process in
    collaboration<br />
    ... but notice if they don't IP</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i agree</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> that's why I think a new
    website, a brand, will make a real difference.<br />
    ... the benefit will only be realized if there is a new staff
    role is an evangelist type role<br />
    ... that gets into these community</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; amen!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> that is aware and
    participates of these community efforts<br />
    ... and that brings the benefits and tools to these
    efforts<br />
    ... rather than say we're w3c, look at our great stuff w3c.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: some of these
    efforts like activity streams or portable contacts would say
    "we're not in the wild- we already have uptake" but at the same
    point, they might need to start thinking about IP issues...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: some of these
    social web efforts are fairly mature though the big problem of
    distributed mature social networks is far from solved...</p>

    <p class='phone'>DKA by suggestion do you basically kinda mean
    liason?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: W3C doesn't have
    liaisons with web 2.0 social stuff...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; sounds like it</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: I'm becoming
    less clear on what the goal is... W3C has these great tools and
    we want to make them available... But we actually want to use
    them to lure you in... and there is only dues-paying
    membership...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: Big benefit of
    w3c is the royalty-free patent policy. Meta-level goal is to
    make sure that these standards are open and royalty-free.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; +1 on patent policy
    being a key benefit</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: that's why w3c
    has to be a member organization.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: you have to have
    members who have companies who have patents but a lot of the
    creativity comes from the community groups...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; this doesnt sounds
    like a great idea to me</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> free membership hasn't been
    taken off the table<br />
    ... there is an argument that it would bring funding into the
    organization<br />
    ... although others worry it may take away the funding<br />
    ... if there was a free category you'd have more agreement</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: you could
    imagine some slightly re-jigged invited expert status...
    Invited experts should not work for companies who have parents
    in that area...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; without funding there
    is more work with less money</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: I'm not saying
    that's not true but by that fact it kind of derails this other
    effort. You have to be able to declare patent-free whatever
    your contributions are. In order to do that you have to be
    working for an entity that will declare it for you or declare
    you free. There are legal costs...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: the conflict
    only exists when you work for a company that may have patents
    in that area...</p>

    <p class='phone'>there's provisional patents as well :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: There's all
    kind of aspects - employment contract law, patent law, etc...
    Does lend weight to "there has to be a degree of corporate
    involvement and therefore dues to support that" but that leads
    us back to where we are today...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; harry is breaking
    up</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> pushback from people in the
    AAC<br />
    ... people who are not really exposed to community driven spec
    development<br />
    ... questioning from folks who had just never heard of the
    idea<br />
    ... I don't want to be mean, but I think we can discount
    that.<br />
    ... since it wasn't grounded in the reality we're trying to
    address here<br />
    ... so overall feedback is good<br />
    ... so there's a level of education we'll have to do to the
    Advisory Committee<br />
    ... otherwise we'll get a lot of pushback from the ac-list</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: we could at
    least endorse modulo name changes the w3c outposts
    proposal...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> not clear.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: I couldn't
    endorse it in it's current state. The goals it's trying to
    achieve are not clear and how it means to achieve them are not
    clear.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; what i heard today
    made me all sad. that is my best summation</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>rreck:</cite> from a business-side it's
    unclear if we can get more resources to supplement more
    work<br />
    ... so we don't want to degrade participation in what W3C
    has.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Harry: the outposts
    proposal would involve extra resources. The [risk we are trying
    to mitigate</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ...] is that "open
    standards" aren't really open. If they don't have a [proven</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ...] patent policy then
    there could be a problem for businesses who are trying to
    deploy these standards in the future.</p>

    <p class='phone'>I do agree we are techies talking to techies,
    but then we often have a good grasp of what's going on in the
    field :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; MacTed: We are talking
    about techies talking to techies - bunch of random guys out
    there working for somebody who may not have a claim on what
    they're doing. What we want to have happen is.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ... for somebody say "I
    agree I am not going to charge royalties"...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; s/adjourn//</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; i have no audio
    out</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ;lkasads 'k;</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; just nice to hear
    y'voices ;)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i like and agree with
    harry's point</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; s/ajourn/adjourn/</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; last oen</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'>Meeting Adjourned</p>

    <p class='phone'>trackbot, end meeting</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
    $Date: 2010/04/21 16:09:58 $
  </address>

  <div class="diagnostics">
    <hr />

    <h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
    before finalizing the minutes.]<br />
    <pre>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20  
Check for newer version at <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/</a>

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

FAILED: s/adjourn//
FAILED: s/ajourn/adjourn/
Found Scribe: Dan
WARNING: No scribe lines found matching ScribeNick pattern: &lt;Dan&gt; ...
Found ScribeNick: DKA
Found ScribeNick: hhalpin
ScribeNicks: DKA, hhalpin
Default Present: MacTed, +95177aaaa, pchampin, DKA, +049172247aabb, yoshiaki, melvster, Anita, hhalpin, rreck
Present: MacTed +95177aaaa pchampin DKA +049172247aabb yoshiaki melvster Anita hhalpin rreck
Found Date: 21 Apr 2010
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/21-swxg-minutes.html</a>
People with action items: 

</pre>[End of <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> diagnostic output]
  </div>
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