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  <title>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 14 Apr
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  <h1>- DRAFT -</h1>

  <h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>

  <h2>14 Apr 2010</h2>

  <p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-irc">IRC
  log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd>pchampin, MacTed, melvster, yoshiaki, +34.91.639.aaaa,
      oshani, rreck, +049172247aabb</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>hhalpin</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>melvster</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
        2010-04-15T15:00-16:00GMT</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item02">Action Reminders</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item03">Oshani of MIT/DIG on her work on
        policy-aware content re-use</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">
    <p class='phone'></p>

    <p class='phone'></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 14 April
    2010</p>

    <h3 id="item01">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
    2010-04-15T15:00-16:00GMT</h3>

    <p class='phone'>i can scribe</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; something's weird
    with Zakim again...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; scribe:
    melvster</p>

    <p class='phone'>tho my IP will reset in about 55 minutes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/07-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; approve?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; APPROVED: Minutes
    from 4-07 approved.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; for attendance ...
    IRC (currently) shows : yoshiaki pchampin hhalpin oshani MacTed
    melvster AlexPassant tinkster</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> looking at policy
    languages</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; XACML</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> next week larger
    overview, outside of sem web, inc. XACML</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; APPROVED: meet next
    week 4-22</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <h3 id="item02">Action Reminders</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; wonder how zakim knew
    me</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; they must have gotten
    the email</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> everyone that has an open
    action isnt on the phone<br />
    ... will send people personal reminders</p><a name="action01"
    id="action01"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to send personal reminders
    that final report actions should be done before next meeting
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-137
    - Send personal reminders that final report actions should be
    done before next meeting [on Harry Halpin - due
    2010-04-21].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> let's go over to
    oshani<br />
    ... from MIT DIG</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>oshani</cite>&gt; Slides of my talk:
    <a href=
    "http://people.csail.mit.edu/oshani/talks/swxg.pdf">http://people.csail.mit.edu/oshani/talks/swxg.pdf</a></p>

    <h3 id="item03">Oshani of MIT/DIG on her work on policy-aware
    content re-use</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> use case where someones
    picture was taken from flickr<br />
    ... advertising campagn<br />
    ... but it was legal acc. to the rules, to use it<br />
    ... pen friend</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.parentdish.com/tag/dump%20your%20pen%20friend/">http://www.parentdish.com/tag/dump%20your%20pen%20friend/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> slides on irc<br />
    ... im a phd student at DIG MIT<br />
    ... focuses mainly on policies for the web<br />
    ... how it relates to sem web<br />
    ... first a small example, of why it's important to make people
    policy aware<br />
    ... discuss a few tools we've developed in our group<br />
    ... talk about 'respect my privcay'<br />
    ... lots of content on the web 3.6bn on flickr, 1 trillion web
    pages<br />
    ... people put their content on the web, and expect people to
    properly attribute<br />
    ... cc licences is the de facto licence<br />
    ... meant to be a rights expression, rather enforcement,
    expressed in human/machine readable format</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Creative Commons I
    think was one of the main use cases for the creation of RDFa
    (i.e. RDF markup inside HTML)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> human readable, icons,
    text for lawyers<br />
    ... machine readable too<br />
    ... 100m flikr images CC licenced</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 6</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> cc licences support
    different uses<br />
    ... Share Alike most common<br />
    ... non commercial use<br />
    ... no derivatives, means you must use as is<br />
    ... people can mix content</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 7</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> most search engines
    support CC, yahoo google</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 8</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> most content sites
    support CC<br />
    ... you can generate your own CC licences<br />
    ... from creativecommons.org<br />
    ... you can generate from a wizard</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cc:</cite> AttributionName<br />
    ... cc:AttributionURL</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 10</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cc:</cite> cc:morePermissions<br />
    ... using RDF to describe licences<br />
    ... licence has a URI</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 11</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; you could color code
    the edges</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cc:</cite> human readable format is easy
    to read<br />
    ... also uses RDFa<br />
    ... will show you the permissions<br />
    ... eg free to share / remix and the permissions beyond are
    availailble at &lt;URI&gt; attribution, and can properly
    attribute the person</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 13</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cc:</cite> wanted to see if people are
    actually aware of these things<br />
    ... 78% - 94% are not aware of CC<br />
    ... we used flickr images<br />
    ... CC did a survey saying images are the most commonly used
    content<br />
    ... flickr has the largest collection of CC images<br />
    ... nice URI<br />
    ... to extract photo information<br />
    ... used technorati to generate samples<br />
    ... randomized selection of flikr image URIs<br />
    ... authority rank, varies over time, and we collected 3
    samples</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 17</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cc:</cite> used CC attribution<br />
    ... one of the well defined CC licences out there<br />
    ... use username<br />
    ... use URL<br />
    ... close to wherever that content is used<br />
    ... flickr username or full name of user, URL was flickr user
    url<br />
    ... either /or<br />
    ... questions?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> was my intution, but
    this is the first statistics<br />
    ... is there any related work?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> not that i know of</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 18</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> raw violations 78% -
    94%</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; oh, I'd also be
    interested in stats of use of ccRel in microformats vs rdfa in
    the wild</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; or just in HTML as
    a picture.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> if it's your image you
    own the copyright</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; My guess is image
    in HTML will predominate...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> if you're not using the
    licence, then you're setting a precident<br />
    ... precision analysis<br />
    ... low precision<br />
    ... needed to remove<br />
    ... non self attributed images<br />
    ... found a higher rate<br />
    ... not bad people<br />
    ... lazy / dont know terms / dont know how to properly
    attribute people</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 21</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2008/WSRI-Exchange/results">http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2008/WSRI-Exchange/results</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> did you look at only
    flickr? does it use microformats or rdfa?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> they now use rdfa, but
    not during the experiment</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; great work helping
    them use RDFa.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> interesting to see stats
    on how much machine readable format is out there</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 22</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> have several tools to
    enable policy awareness<br />
    ... one is flickr cc validator<br />
    ... idea is you can give any uri with flickr images<br />
    ... can validate violations<br />
    ... will show images that violate any licence, the owner, and
    how to correct<br />
    ... limitations : can only validate images that have the flickr
    image uri<br />
    ... it wont work with an alternate URI<br />
    ... wont detect getty images etc. if they had been uploaded to
    flickr</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> images that are hotlinked
    ... do you have anything that looks inside the image file, eg
    in the headers?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> can look at meta data,
    but CC data isnt there unfortunately, just a key value pair
    that people can overwrite</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> if someone is casually
    violating, do you detect that</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> there are tools that
    allow you to embed any key value pairs<br />
    ... better alternative, XMP where you can put RDF, I was
    proposing that to flickr</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> not sure whether they'll
    change</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; for embedding it
    themselves, make it as easy as possible for enduser</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> want them to support
    XMP</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://dig.csail.mit.edu/FlickrCC/validator.cgi">http://dig.csail.mit.edu/FlickrCC/validator.cgi</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> you can try it out<br />
    ... other type of tool is more general<br />
    ... any type of content</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 27</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> so long as they have a CC
    licence in right expression lang<br />
    ... right now only impl. for images<br />
    ... FF extension<br />
    ... if you're browsing images, it will show you if you can copy
    an image<br />
    ... if you want to find images that are used for commercial
    purposes<br />
    ... you can use the tool to highlight those images</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 28</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> right click on an
    image<br />
    ... context menu will allow you to copy, copy with licence,
    will make you automatically licence compliant<br />
    ... limitations we would want rdfa, most content doesnt have
    rdfa<br />
    ... hopefully supported in subsequent versions</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 30</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/tab/release/unofficial/tabulator-latest.xpi">
    http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2007/tab/release/unofficial/tabulator-latest.xpi</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> try it out<br />
    ... install tabulator<br />
    ... then you can use it</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> any chance it will be
    divorced from tabulator?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> tabulator is in active
    development<br />
    ... several unofficial uses<br />
    ... it uses the tabulator rdf parser library<br />
    ... so the code wont be replicated</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> sandbox security settings
    are needed for tabulator<br />
    ... if you dont do that tabulator doesnt work</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> i can do that</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> i would encourage you to
    do so</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> policies on content
    reuse<br />
    ... how to give proper credit<br />
    ... people worry about things like privacy on soc nets<br />
    ... two of my colleagues created a project called 'repsect my
    privacy'</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 32</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> specify
    restrictions<br />
    ... facebook has access control settings, but what happens if
    the data somehow gets out?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 33</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> private information can
    be copied and reposted<br />
    ... inferences can be made ... 'gaydar'</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; this work is
    actually rather scary!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> analysed MIT network and
    selected 1500 males, and based on inference principles, they
    can infer sexual orientation<br />
    ... policy changes can also occur<br />
    ... no clear cut solution<br />
    ... information accountability<br />
    ... specify under what conditions data can be reused<br />
    ... similar to CC</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 34</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 35</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> make people aware of
    usage restrictions<br />
    ... supported across facebook, opensocial, tabulator<br />
    ... ask the user to specify privacy preferences<br />
    ... displays data and highlights restrictions</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 36</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> RMP restrictions<br />
    ... no commercial<br />
    ... no depiction ... please dont use my picture<br />
    ... no employment<br />
    ... no financial<br />
    ... no medical dont use this information for any medical
    decisions<br />
    ... eg insurance cos. / hospitals<br />
    ... motivated by several complaints</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 37</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://apps.facebook.com/respectmyprivacy/">http://apps.facebook.com/respectmyprivacy/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> went further<br />
    ... tried to use the semantic web<br />
    ... facebook applications are limited<br />
    ... just a label<br />
    ... used FOAF converter by Matt Rowe<br />
    ... uses RMP decisions<br />
    ... not allowed to keep exported data off facebook for &gt; 24
    hours<br />
    ... makes it restrictive</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; hmm how do they
    enforce that time restriction?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> also used on
    tabulator<br />
    ... uses application panes<br />
    ... supprots edit in place (SPARUL)<br />
    ... data pane<br />
    ... social pane<br />
    ... get yourself a webid<br />
    ... using webDAV<br />
    ... browse FOAF profiles</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; slide 42</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> extended foaf pane<br />
    ... includes RMP<br />
    ... include privacy restrictions<br />
    ... if your FOAF has SPARUL it will persist<br />
    ... can add licences to FOAF<br />
    ... example slide 43<br />
    ... can intermix CC and RMP<br />
    ... that's about it for RMP ... questions?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; like the mixing,
    thats RDF</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> how does facebook
    legally enforce the 24h export data rule</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> it's the privacy
    policy<br />
    ... dont know how they enforce it</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; any other
    questions?</p>

    <p class='phone'>i can download that extension from the link
    above, yes?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>pchampin:</cite> what does the fb app.
    do? does it change privacy setting to be confomant with
    rmp?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> no, we cant touch those,
    we can display a badge<br />
    ... before you install the app, it gives the philosophy behind
    RMP, more a notice, encouraging people to be honest</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; questions?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> we want distributed
    policy in access control languages, only a few uses, what are
    your thougths on CC and the other work being done, can we make
    it more general</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; but it could be
    part of an access control langauge</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> CC is data uses rather
    than access control</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> some use cases eg dump
    your penfriend, are content reuse, some issues solved by
    tagging, can people be notified</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; yes that's
    correct</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> that used CC attribution
    licences, and vigin mobile properly attributed the person that
    uploaded that image, so they were licence compliant</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Virgin was license
    compliant!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> settled out of court</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; weird</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; nothing to
    Flickr?</p>

    <p class='phone'>( my connection will die in about 2 minutes
    )</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> if someone comes and
    reuses your image, they can do certain things<br />
    ... cc is not that explicit, people need to be more policy and
    licence aware<br />
    ... there should be tools that let you do that</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; thanks for
    presenting</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    standardization?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ccRel
    well-known</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; seems to being used
    correctly?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RMP introduced some
    new terms that might not have consensus</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; so maybe W3C could
    look in that direction.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Meeting
    Adjourned</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; bye bye</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; bubye</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster1</cite>&gt; hi sorry about
    that</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; no problem melvster
    I got the final minutes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster1</cite>&gt; great! :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; trackbot, end
    meeting</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to send
  personal reminders that final report actions should be done
  before next meeting [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />

  &nbsp;<br />
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
    $Date: 2010/04/14 15:59:39 $
  </address>

  <div class="diagnostics">
    <hr />

    <h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
    before finalizing the minutes.]<br />
    <pre>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/</a>

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/APPORVED/APPROVED/
Succeeded: s/UIR/URI/
Found Scribe: melvster
Inferring ScribeNick: melvster
Default Present: pchampin, MacTed, melvster, yoshiaki, +34.91.639.aaaa, oshani, rreck, +049172247aabb
Present: pchampin MacTed melvster yoshiaki +34.91.639.aaaa oshani rreck +049172247aabb
Found Date: 14 Apr 2010
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/04/14-swxg-minutes.html</a>
People with action items: hhalpin

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"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> diagnostic output]
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