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  <title>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference -- 03 Feb
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  <h1>- DRAFT -</h1>

  <h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>

  <h2>03 Feb 2010</h2>

  <p><a href=
  'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0000.html'>
  Agenda</a></p>

  <p>See also: <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd>conrad, davy, erik, silvia, thierry, yves, jack</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dd>davy, raphael, michael</dd>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>erik</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>conrad</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">1 Admin</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">
    <p class='phone'></p>

    <p class='phone'></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 03 February
    2010</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; scribenick:
    conrad</p>

    <h3 id="item01">1 Admin</h3>

    <p class='phone'>PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 27
    January 2009 telecon:</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>silvia</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>erik</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: to
    accept the minutes of the 27 January 2009 telecon</strong></p>

    <p class='phone'>ACTION-127</p>

    <p class='phone'>Thierry/Yves to look for the charter
    extension</p>

    <p class='phone'>extension has not yet been granted, but should
    not be an issue -- just w3 process</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> submission of MTAP SI on
    Semantic Multimedia ongoing</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tmichel</cite>&gt; the extension
    should have discussed at last week W3M meeting, but is was
    not</p>

    <p class='phone'>2. F2F meeting</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tmichel</cite>&gt; plh said it should
    be discussed this afternnoon</p>

    <p class='phone'>Draft Agenda: <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FithF2FAgenda">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/wiki/FithF2FAgenda</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>venue and location are booked by thierry and
    erik</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> over the next 2 weeks we
    will have to fill in the agend</p>

    <p class='phone'>a</p>

    <p class='phone'>we have to go to last call in march, there is
    a lot to discuss, it will be important</p>

    <p class='phone'>there will be 5 there, hopefully the others
    can attend via phone</p>

    <p class='phone'>3. SPECIFICATION:</p>

    <p class='phone'>Raphael to fix the weird character in the spec
    document</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; CLOSED: <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jan/0102.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jan/0102.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>3.1 Media Fragment URI syntax: (Yves)</p>

    <p class='phone'>Bug in the npt specification:</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Philip:</cite> <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Nov/0023.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2009Nov/0023.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Dom:</cite> <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jan/0093.html">
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Jan/0093.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> we changed from abnf to
    ebnf (?) yves, is your action still valid?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> yes</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> is there an issue with
    the change?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> no, i am using abnf for
    other things, but i'm sure ebnf shall be similar</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> then we only have the
    parsing issues dom mentioned, which are minor</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> the npt definition was not
    exactly correct, that was the only thing holding up the
    grammar</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> yes, as discussed in
    email, just a small change</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> i will look at that before
    the f2f</p>

    <p class='phone'>(but i will be away next week)</p>

    <p class='phone'>3.2 Protocol for URI fragment Resolution in
    HTTP</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> any problem with the
    changes proposed by Philip?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> no, they clarify things,
    they might have made the document structure more complicated.
    philip also proposed some changes to document structure but
    they make sense</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> i agree</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, i would be against a structure
    where normative and non-normative are not separated. I would
    like them to be clearly spaced</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> we should put an overview
    table at the end of the document of what is normative and
    informative, rather than spreading it through the document.
    most of it is obvious, but it is important to put the info in
    one place</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, the nice thing about a table is
    that if it indexes all the normative stuff, you can use it to
    find what you actually need</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, not sure i like the idea that it
    should be clear from the wording, because then in non-normative
    text you have to refrain from using SHOULD, MUST etc.</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, it should be clear from the layout
    which is which</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, comments in-line about what is
    normative is not useful</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, in SMIL spec, we put in text
    markers for people who use screen readers etc. (as well as
    colors)</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, in the published document there
    are only text markers -- the visual markers were not
    included</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, make a note now, put these in if we
    come to committee draft</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, the xml format we use has a way to
    distinguish paragraphs, so if we use that we can modify the
    layout in stylesheet</p>

    <p class='phone'>thierry, distinguish in screen and aural?</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, just use the xml to make a clear
    distinction between normative and informative text</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tmichel</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-SMIL3-20081201/smil-structure.html">
    http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-SMIL3-20081201/smil-structure.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thierry:</cite> we should put a div with
    class="normative" or class="informative"</p><a name="action01"
    id="action01"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik to mark up the spec with
    normative and informative classes [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-134
    - Mark up the spec with normative and informative classes [on
    Erik Mannens - due 2010-02-10].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>thierry:</cite> do we also want to have
    text saying "this section is normative"?</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, that can be part of the style</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, i guess the table is already in the
    document, but a table at the end with a reference to the
    normative parts would be nice</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>ACTION-123:</cite> Yves to come up with
    ABNF for header syntax</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; ACTION-123 Come up
    with ABNF for header syntax notes added</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> action 133 is ongoing</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>yves:</cite> re: action 123, need to
    find the proposal from the archives</p>

    <p class='phone'>Review of the complete Section 5.2.1 for group
    approval</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; postponed (we have
    not all yet reviewed it)</p>

    <p class='phone'>erik, this should be done before the f2f</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> i have read it and am
    happy with it, apart from minor issues in the ebnf; dom also
    suggested to put the ebnf syntax together in one place; maybe
    we should just repeat it all at the end</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, he made a few changes to make it
    easier to read, along the lines of the html5 spec</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> i'm happy with what he's
    done, i don't have any issues</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> ok, tbc</p>

    <p class='phone'>3.3 Rendering of Media Fragments URI in
    UA:</p>

    <p class='phone'>ACTION-130</p>

    <p class='phone'>Silvia to draft a new subsection in the
    Section 5 regarding the rendering in the UI of media fragments,
    at least for the temporal dimension</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> i sent an email just
    before this meeting<br />
    ... i've put a paragraph into section 5.1.4</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>silvia</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-overview-interpretation">
    http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-overview-interpretation</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>so basically the action is done</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> davy, i've made a mention
    of spatial,track dimensions</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>davy:</cite> ok, i'll work over that
    too</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, i really like silvia's suggestion,
    but we should make sure that in the protocol we have enough
    detail to actually implement it</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, which touches on issue 5, similar
    to silvia's note about the temporal domain, but in the spatial
    domain</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, we should ensure that the server
    provides any information such as width, height etc. so that
    clipping can be implemented client-side</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, we need to specify these things for
    each dimension, please add a paragraph</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, also at the end of section 5.1.4,
    a very simple graphic of a timeline of a video playing would be
    handy to help with understanding the intention</p>

    <p class='phone'>close action-130</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; ACTION-130 Draft a
    new subsection in the Section 5 regarding the rendering in the
    UI of media fragments, at least for the temporal dimension
    closed</p><a name="action02" id="action02"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> davy,erik to extend section 5
    regarding spatial and track dimension [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
    find user - davy,erik</p><a name="action03" id="action03"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> erik to extend section 5 regarding
    spatial and track dimension [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-135
    - Extend section 5 regarding spatial and track dimension [on
    Erik Mannens - due 2010-02-10].</p><a name="action04" id=
    "action04"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> davy to create a diagram of video
    timeline to explain temporal dimension [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-136
    - Create a diagram of video timeline to explain temporal
    dimension [on Davy Van Deursen - due 2010-02-10].</p><a name=
    "action05" id="action05"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> jack to check that 5.1.4 is
    implementable using the protocol [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-137
    - Check that 5.1.4 is implementable using the protocol [on Jack
    Jansen - due 2010-02-10].</p>

    <p class='phone'>3.4 Discovery of 'Track' and 'Named'
    fragments:</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> nothing to discuss yet,
    this is being worked on in ogg</p>

    <p class='phone'>3.4, 3.5 to be discussed later on</p>

    <p class='phone'>5. TEST CASES: (Michael)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> i'm in favour of making
    next phone conf all about test cases, for a whole hour</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, last week we mentioned that the foms
    people would be keen to have an indication on which sections
    are fairly ready, and my suggestion was that section 5.2.1 can
    be implemented</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yves</cite>&gt; the only indication of
    stability is publishing LC or CR</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>conrad:</cite> perhaps we don't need to
    specify that the mechanism for handling client-side fragments
    involves http byte-range requests: just specify that "if the
    client can already seek over the network, honor this fragment
    syntax"</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, last week we decided that rather than
    pulling out parts of the document which are stable, we simply
    mark within the document how mature each part of the document
    is, so implementers can go ahead</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, whereas last call etc. is really for
    the whole document; we don't want to hold back implementers</p>

    <p class='phone'>Yves, the parts which are unstable may lead to
    changes in the parts we think are stable now</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, unlikely as that section is really
    trivial</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, that section has very little value
    with out parts of chapters 3, 4</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, i like the sentiment about
    allowing implementers to start implementing stuff, but ...</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, yes, but we have already been through
    section 3 substantially, any changes will be minor</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, i probably agree, but then even if
    we mark sections as "stable" we should specify that it may
    change anyway. we don't want to be editing for all eternity
    like the whatwg is doing</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, we should start having
    implementations. we are really close to having the temporal
    stuff finalized, even though the headers etc. may still be
    under discussion</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, if we keep working on the spec without
    any implementations, it's not going to move ahead in a
    reasonable amount of time</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, if we mark these things as not
    "stable/unstable" but "reaonsably stable, mature" etc. that is
    fine with me</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, "ready for test implementations" would
    be a useful indication</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> fine by me too</p>

    <p class='phone'>4. ISSUES</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jackjansen</cite>&gt; conrad, I'd like
    a note "for test implementation" or something.</p>

    <p class='phone'>issue-4.1</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> postpone non-active
    issues</p>

    <p class='phone'>5. TEST CASES</p>

    <p class='phone'>jackjansen, is a phone conference the best
    medium for discussing details of test cases?</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, i agree -- we should prepare the group
    for the meeting re: test cases, but it is up to michael</p>

    <p class='phone'>silvia, whether we prepare for the test cases
    next week or not, we should at least talk about it then</p>

    <p class='phone'>6. IMPLEMENTATION:</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>erik:</cite> any news?</p>

    <p class='phone'>none</p>

    <p class='phone'>all ongoing</p>

    <p class='phone'>7. AOB</p>

    <p class='phone'>none</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> davy to create a
  diagram of video timeline to explain temporal dimension [recorded
  in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> davy,erik to
  extend section 5 regarding spatial and track dimension [recorded
  in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> erik to extend
  section 5 regarding spatial and track dimension [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Erik to mark up
  the spec with normative and informative classes [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> jack to check
  that 5.1.4 is implementable using the protocol [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2010/02/03-mediafrag-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />

  &nbsp;<br />
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
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    $Date: 2010/02/03 11:01:13 $
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    <h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at <a href=
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/davy/thierry/
Found ScribeNick: conrad
Inferring Scribes: conrad
Present: conrad davy erik silvia thierry yves jack
Regrets: davy raphael michael
Agenda: <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0000.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Feb/0000.html</a>
Found Date: 03 Feb 2010
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
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People with action items: davy erik jack

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
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