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  <title>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 09 Dec
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  <h1>- DRAFT -</h1>

  <h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>

  <h2>09 Dec 2009</h2>

  <p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2009/12/09-swxg-irc">IRC
  log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>danbri</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>mischat</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">2005 -
        http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/foaf-galway/
        ?</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">
    <p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>

    <p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 09 December
    2009</p>

    <p class='phone'>no one is chatting bblfish</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Nobody talking on
    phone.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; danbri: i propose
    skipping all admin and going straight to henry</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; ok :-)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; hearing no
    objections ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; who is
    scribing?</p>

    <p class='phone'>i can scribe</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; yes please!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; what's the script
    notation to say</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; scribe: mischat</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; scribe: mischat</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; ok, if people want
    they can download a presentation I have made recently <a href=
    "http://bblfish.net/tmp/2009/11/">http://bblfish.net/tmp/2009/11/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; This will be
    useful, or just "if people want"?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; which one?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; (it's 45MB, so just
    start now. I won't go through all of it, but it will make
    things easier)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; if you don't have
    keynote, take the pdf</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; yes</p>

    <p class='phone'>yes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; yes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; +1 skip</p>

    <p class='phone'>any actions which people want to talk about
    ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; danbri proposing
    skip admin</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; skipping!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; Henry Story</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ----</p>

    <p class='phone'>henry story to talk about foaf+ssl</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://bblfish.net/tmp/2009/11/">http://bblfish.net/tmp/2009/11/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://bblfish.net/tmp/2009/11/TheSocialWeb-SantaClara.pdf">http://bblfish.net/tmp/2009/11/TheSocialWeb-SantaClara.pdf</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>henry works for Sun Mircosystems, and has been
    travelling around europe talking about distributed social
    networks</p>

    <h3 id="item01">2005 - <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/foaf-galway/">http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/foaf-galway/</a>
    ?</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='phone'>semantic web helps us solve a problem which is
    required to have a distributed social network</p>

    <p class='phone'>issues with single sites such as facebook,
    where you have to log in, and then add all your friends one by
    one</p>

    <p class='phone'>there are loads of social networks about</p>

    <p class='phone'>recreating your social graph on every SNS is
    tedious and causes problems</p>

    <p class='phone'>such issues, and the notion of ownership of
    data has led to the data-portablity movement</p>

    <p class='phone'>scoble had an issue where he got kicked out of
    his social network, after attempting to remove all of this
    data</p>

    <p class='phone'>users don't own the data they upload to social
    networks</p>

    <p class='phone'>social graph, and the issue that you only have
    access to your own social graph, but the service providers have
    a view of everyones' social graph</p>

    <p class='phone'>companies with secrets cant use existing
    social networks, re: data ownership problems</p>

    <p class='phone'>there is a big brother privacy issue, we may
    not want people to look at what you are doing on a given social
    networking start</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (2000 even)</p>

    <p class='phone'>danbri and libby started foaf in 2000 :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; timbl: 1989!</p>

    <p class='phone'>foaf project enables a distributed social
    network</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (I have a pile of
    foaf slides here <a href=
    "http://www.slideshare.net/danbri">http://www.slideshare.net/danbri</a>
    )</p>

    <p class='phone'>current social networks are really popular,
    and they have good working UIs, and have engaged users</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; for timbl, see
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html">http://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html</a>
    The "Personal Skills Inventory". "Personal skills and
    experience are just the sort of thing which need hypertext
    flexibility. People can be linked to projects they have worked
    on, which in turn can be linked to particular machines,
    programming languages, etc. "</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (ie. this use case
    was envisaged in the original design for the Web itself)</p>

    <p class='phone'>foaf and the semantic web, allows for data to
    be linked together between different sites</p>

    <p class='phone'>foaf allows for people to be linked
    together</p>

    <p class='phone'>people get given a URI</p>

    <p class='phone'>a foaf:Person URI</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; :)</p>

    <p class='phone'>these URIs give you the ability to produce a
    global namespace for people</p>

    <p class='phone'>semantic web, builds on logic</p>

    <p class='phone'>allows for sentences to be built about things
    in the world</p>

    <p class='phone'>semantic web, mathematics of merging and
    mapping information</p>

    <p class='phone'>in order to show how foaf works, and how the
    Semantic Web can work, henry built a foaf-based Address
    book</p>

    <p class='phone'>this address-book allows for webpages to
    dragged and dropped into the address book app</p>

    <p class='phone'>and it grabs your foaf file</p>

    <p class='phone'>and it then populates your address book with
    information about the person just added to your address</p>

    <p class='phone'>the address book makes http requests to
    people's foaf files, and extracts information about that person
    and adds this information into your address book</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (public's good and
    all, but not everyone wants to share everything :)</p>

    <p class='phone'>the problem people had with the Address Book
    was that it required that all your information be in public
    foaf files</p>

    <p class='phone'>foaf gives us data-ownership</p>

    <p class='phone'>people can host their own info</p>

    <p class='phone'>it doesn't solve the action creation
    complexity problem</p>

    <p class='phone'>it solves a bunch of problem by not touching
    them, i.e. privacy</p>

    <p class='phone'>henry has found that in order to support
    privacy</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (we had some old
    experiments with PGP ... <a href=
    "http://usefulinc.com/foaf/encryptingFoafFiles">http://usefulinc.com/foaf/encryptingFoafFiles</a>
    ... but it was limited to the tiny subset of us who could
    remember their PGP / GPG passwords and how to use them :)</p>

    <p class='phone'>there was a need to implement a form of
    authentication</p>

    <p class='phone'>and identification</p>

    <p class='phone'>for the last 20 years we have relied on
    usernames and password</p>

    <p class='phone'>but imagine a distributed social network,
    where people host their own data, you would have to hold
    accounts with usernames and passwords on all of your friends
    servers</p>

    <p class='phone'>this just wouldn't work</p>

    <p class='phone'>then came openid</p>

    <p class='phone'>openid gave each person a global identifier or
    a URI</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ( slide 53 = openid
    )</p>

    <p class='phone'>the protocol is a tad complicated</p>

    <p class='phone'>there is a lot of back and forwarding when
    doing an openid login</p>

    <p class='phone'>attribute exchange of openid is not
    restful</p>

    <p class='phone'>which makes it hard to link to information</p>

    <p class='phone'>there are also known security issues with
    openid ?</p>

    <p class='phone'>openid is very much compatible with the
    foaf+ssl work</p>

    <p class='phone'>foaf+ssl uses the client-certificate
    infrastructure built into modern web-browsers</p>

    <p class='phone'>it is built on top of https</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://foaf.me/">http://foaf.me/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://foaf.me/">http://foaf.me/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>you can create your own certificate and your
    own foaf file</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (is foaf.me down
    right now?)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>melvster:</cite> ^^ ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; seems to be down for
    me</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; sorry yes</p>

    <p class='phone'>it works in FF, opera , safari</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; appears down at
    this second</p>

    <p class='phone'>but not IE</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; fixable? :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; im looking ...</p>

    <p class='phone'>slide 57 has a UML diagram</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Generating keys in
    IE requires ActiveX and none of us have been bothered to look
    at that yet.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/foaf.me">http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/foaf.me</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>yay to links</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; here <a href=
    "http://esw.w3.org/topic/foaf+ssl">http://esw.w3.org/topic/foaf+ssl</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>links to most of the topics covered can be
    found on the esw wiki</p>

    <p class='phone'>^^</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; here the protocol
    description <a href=
    "http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/foaf_ssl_adding_security_to">
    http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/foaf_ssl_adding_security_to</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; slide 57 = 59 = 62
    ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; slide 61</p>

    <p class='phone'>once you have created your certificate, you
    can log in to a foaf+ssl enabled site by simply presenting your
    cert to the site</p>

    <p class='phone'>in order to attach a URI to a certificate</p>

    <p class='phone'>foaf+ssl has used a property in the X.509
    header</p>

    <p class='phone'>property X?</p>

    <p class='phone'>this property should point to your foaf
    file</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; (And Peter
    Williams also said that we're using it pretty much how it
    should be used.)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ' X509v3 Subject
    Alternative Name:'</p>

    <p class='phone'>thanks</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; here <a href=
    "http://esw.w3.org/topic/WebId">http://esw.w3.org/topic/WebId</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>and if foaf file has the public key of the
    cert in question, then the cert is said to be associated to the
    foaf:Person URI</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; very sorry guys
    ... seems to be an ISP issue with foaf.me ... trying to trace
    the issue ...</p>

    <p class='phone'>which is now being called a WebID</p>

    <p class='phone'>so whoever owns the private key of the public
    key stated in the foaf file is said to be the person identified
    in the X.509 certificate</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>caribou</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://esw.w3.org/topic/WebID">WebID</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>danbri asks about the level of security in
    foaf+ssl and the robustness of the desig</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; esp re first step,
    where you're loading a public foaf file</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ... how much of a
    difference do we care re https vs http URIs for the public
    files</p>

    <p class='phone'>http resource can be made subject to man in
    the middle attack</p>

    <p class='phone'>so for more security critical applications one
    should use an https WebId</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; wondering role for
    xmldsig-signed markup here ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Use FOAF+SSL to
    log into a social network, but not into a bank.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; since foaf.me is
    down ... worth noting that this has all been built into
    Virtuoso &amp; OpenLink Data Spaces ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; docs -- <a href=
    "http://ods.openlinksw.com/wiki/ODS/VirtODSFOAFSSL">http://ods.openlinksw.com/wiki/ODS/VirtODSFOAFSSL</a>
    -- can be followed against <a href=
    "http://myopenlink.net/ods/">http://myopenlink.net/ods/</a> or
    <a href=
    "http://my.openlinksw.com/ods/">http://my.openlinksw.com/ods/</a>
    (which servers are up and running) or you can put up your own
    pretty quickly.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; dnssec</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; tinkster, that's a
    nice first step towards getting mother maiden names, birthdays
    etc...</p>

    <p class='phone'>using the WOT</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; HAR</p>

    <p class='phone'>back in the day danbri was playing with the
    signed foaf files with pgp</p>

    <p class='phone'>but the issue was that not that many people
    used pgp</p>

    <p class='phone'>danbri asked if henry thought it was a good
    idea to revisit such things</p>

    <p class='phone'>henry started talking about signing sub-graphs
    in RDF</p>

    <p class='phone'>i don't understand why you would want to sign
    a sub-grapg</p>

    <p class='phone'>?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; J Carroll paper
    mentioned by danbri - <a href=
    "http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2003/HPL-2003-142.pdf">http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2003/HPL-2003-142.pdf</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>digitally signing rdf : <a href=
    "http://xmlns.com/wot/0.1/">http://xmlns.com/wot/0.1/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; danbri: 2 scenarios
    ... user signs locally and pushes the result up to server
    (atompub etc); or else the host signs, so even if they don't
    use ssl everywhere, you could know livejournal/hi5 etc's pubkey
    and be sure the file wasn't interfered with</p>

    <p class='phone'>foaf+ssl makes it easy to have multiple
    certs</p>

    <p class='phone'>you can also easily invalidate a cert if you
    loose a machine</p>

    <p class='phone'>using pgp, if you loose your private key, you
    will have to ask people to re-sign your key</p>

    <p class='phone'>:)</p>

    <p class='phone'>danbri proposes a method of pushing data
    signed data via atom-pub or similar to a site such as
    facebook</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (with eg garlik as a
    file-signing intermediary ...)</p>

    <p class='phone'>our foaf validator, can tell you if your foaf
    file is signed properly</p>

    <p class='phone'>but yes, signing a foaf file for someone else
    does sound interesting</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (I'm not gonna hold
    my breath waiting for dns to be secured :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; mischa, ... just to
    say 'garlik saw this, and got it from the party whose openid x
    checked out...' ... but not necc to vouch for its contents</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; danbri, you wanted to
    ask about attacks when not https</p>

    <p class='phone'>it would be nice to see if there was a method
    in the X.509 external where you could say only send information
    to a party if it is signed ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://openid4.me">http://openid4.me</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://openid4.me/">http://openid4.me/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; also <a href=
    "http://github.com/akbarhossain/openid4me">http://github.com/akbarhossain/openid4me</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>understood danbri</p>

    <p class='phone'>openid4.me allows you to use an openid login
    form</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (garlik or other
    biz-s could also fact check specific claims, like
    workplaceHomepage ... )</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; AX: not yet
    programmed</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; sreg works</p>

    <p class='phone'>openid4.me allows you to use your WebID, and
    your foaf+ssl cert to log in openid providers</p>

    <p class='phone'>one important piece which is yet to be solved,
    that is content negotiation on foaf files</p>

    <p class='phone'>so in openid you can decide which bits of
    personal information you want to send to a service provider</p>

    <p class='phone'>there is no solution as of yet in the foaf+ssl
    world</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://foaf.me">http://foaf.me</a> appears to be back ...
    ?</p>

    <p class='phone'>yup it is melvster</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; openid <a href=
    "http://openid4.me">http://openid4.me</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/sketch_of_a_restful_photo">http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/sketch_of_a_restful_photo</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>this is a restful implementation of how you
    may want to interact with a restful web service using your
    foaf+ssl WebID</p>

    <p class='phone'>isn't this a similar example as presented in
    the openid spec</p>

    <p class='phone'>ah</p>

    <p class='phone'>yes</p>

    <p class='phone'>you are right</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; oauth use photo
    sites as their intro use case</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; it's actually
    closer to oauth WRAP (the newer version) than oauth</p>

    <p class='phone'>i recall the oauth example in the spec uses
    the photo service</p>

    <p class='phone'>foaf+ssl wants to be make us of linked data,
    semantic web, RDF.</p>

    <p class='phone'>in the future we can imagine a world where
    every user has their own website</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; sounds like <a href=
    "http://unite.opera.com/">http://unite.opera.com/</a> :)</p>

    <p class='phone'>:)</p>

    <p class='phone'>or mac.com user pages</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; see also <a href=
    "http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/social/2009-June/000540.html">
    http://mail.jabber.org/pipermail/social/2009-June/000540.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://ladistribution.net">http://ladistribution.net</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; anyone have
    questions for henry?</p>

    <p class='phone'>ack?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/identity_in_the_browser_firefox">
    http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/identity_in_the_browser_firefox</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; anyone with
    questions, use "q+ to ask about blahblah" here please</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; see <a href=
    "http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-protocols/">http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-protocols/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; here <a href=
    "http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-protocols/">http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-protocols/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>people should join the foaf-protocol mailing
    list</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; me too, bye</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; mischa: with
    foaf+ssl you need something inside your browser ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ... do you think
    we're moving to a world where ppl carry their browser around
    with them</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ... or they use
    machines from anywhere, unless you brin your cert</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; bblfish: i was a bit
    worried initially re signing others' foaf files with my
    pubkey</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ppl can selfsign
    their certs, ... very easy to create new certs, ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; foaf.me should let
    you get a list of certs you have, ... click on them and cancel,
    ... to create one for 10 mins (eg. a net cafe), ...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ... also another
    tech, USB cards, which can be linked with firefox so you can
    put your key on usb card, they'll do the encryption</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; without privkey
    being shared anywhere</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (missed detail)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; bblfish: by basing
    on tls/ssl, we build on existing expertise</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ... they relied a
    bit too much on ldap data structures</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; so too much pre-web
    design</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; lacking web-style
    flexibility/ namespaces</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ldap doesn't allow
    you to have a global directory</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Also, too much
    emphasis on top-down certificate signing, rather than
    self-signed.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (x500 did, kinda?
    -danbri)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; bblfish: so we're
    supplying a missing piece to make the most of ssl</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; danbri, you wanted to
    ask about feedback you've had, in your tours/talks</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>petef</cite>&gt; have to duck out now,
    thanks Henry.</p>

    <p class='phone'>danbri askes about the feedback on your tour,
    and your priorities for the upcoming months</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; bblfish: similar
    questions come up</p>

    <p class='phone'>mainly security based questions</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; re security, ... was
    pleased that specialists seemed relatively untroubled by the
    design</p>

    <p class='phone'>services such as foaf.me</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (foaf.me is back btw
    :)</p>

    <p class='phone'>and openid4.me have really helped when trying
    to see foaf+ssl</p>

    <p class='phone'>foaf+ssl is seen as a practical way of showing
    the semantic web working</p>

    <p class='phone'>in a real world context that is a social
    networking application</p>

    <p class='phone'>drupal dev's found it an easy way into
    Semantic web tech</p>

    <p class='phone'>henry thinks we need more use cases for such
    technology</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; bblfish, ARC2's
    SPARQL is pretty good in my experience, but can only operate on
    in-database (MySQL-only in fact) triple stores; not
    in-memory.</p>

    <p class='phone'>we need to have people using it, so that we
    can identify issues with the foaf+ssl proposition</p>

    <p class='phone'>ack?</p>

    <p class='phone'>the european tour was very useful, giving
    talks about the work really helped. Most talks at barcamps, and
    non-traditional conferences, i.e. not that academic</p>

    <p class='phone'>webfinger</p>

    <p class='phone'>henry would love the swxg to support
    foaf+ssl</p>

    <p class='phone'>?ack</p>

    <p class='phone'>?q</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; I logged into Jyte:
    * Signed in as openid4.me/<a href=
    "http://foaf.me/danbri2%23me">http://foaf.me/danbri2%23me</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; RDF vCard would be
    nearly as useful.</p>

    <p class='phone'>no offense to danbri</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; yeah, it's a fair
    question</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; foaf was designed to
    be optional!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; original name was
    rdfweb ... foaf was just the 'utility vocab'</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; &lt;- <a href=
    "http://www.foaf-project.org/original-intro">http://www.foaf-project.org/original-intro</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>question regarding whether foaf was necessary
    in the foaf+ssl</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; DNA checksum will
    be useful when we create FOAF+Blood authentication.</p>

    <p class='phone'>semantic web tech allows you to add more
    namespaces</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; 'please spit on the
    screen'</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; 'no, down a
    bit...'</p>

    <p class='phone'>allowing you add more information to your foaf
    file, as ontologies come about</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; GoodRelations - what
    do you need, what do you have...</p>

    <p class='phone'>danbri asked which properties you need to
    implement a foaf+ssl</p>

    <p class='phone'>login</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; danbri: exactly
    which properties (and classes) are needed when implementing a
    foaf+ssl system</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; cert:identity,
    rsa:public_exponent, rsa:modulus, cert:hex, cert:decimal.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tinkster:</cite> a link to a cert:?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; so those 2
    namespaces timbl dropped onto w3.org?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> <a href=
    "http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me">http://bblfish.net/people/henry/card#me</a>
    WedID</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; No, the cert links
    to the FOAF file. The FOAF file doesn't need to link to the
    cert (it describes it via those properties).</p>

    <p class='phone'>for an example</p>

    <p class='phone'>ah no my question was, could you give the full
    URI for "cert:identity"</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/cert">http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/cert</a>#</p>

    <p class='phone'>got it</p>

    <p class='phone'>and <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/rsa">http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/rsa</a>#</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>caribou</cite>&gt; member
    submission?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; Todo:</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; - add some classes
    and relations for DSA</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish_</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/cert">http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/cert</a>#</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; - should this all be
    in one file? Or should this be cut up a little? Say one file
    for the general CERT ontology, and then files for RSA, DSA,
    PGP, etc... Or perhaps it does not really matter?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; - expand more on the
    certification side of things</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; - verify this by
    security experts</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish_</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/rsa#%3E">http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/rsa#&gt;</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; - add more todos</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; - owl2 has some
    constructs for combined inverse functional properties.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; This may be useful
    to use in defining an RSA key which is identified</p>

    <p class='phone'>wants a foaf:knows in bblfish's foaf file
    :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; by two numbers.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; - when more stable
    create rdf/xml version</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; - also create html
    version of the spec by using this as a template.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; - should comments
    such as this be in html?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; we could publish a
    swig note</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; or as caribou
    mentions, a member sub (if you continue working for a
    Member)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; here <a href=
    "http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/foaf_ssl_adding_security_to">
    http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/foaf_ssl_adding_security_to</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>what is the smallest thing needed for the spec
    to be useful</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>caribou</cite>&gt; danbri, 1 member
    amongst the authors is sufficient</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Smallest thing to
    be useful = a blog post, though a UN resolution would be
    nice.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; UN :)</p>

    <p class='phone'>danbri asks if Henry would be happy for the
    work to be published via the W3C ?</p>

    <p class='phone'>henry would be happy for the work to be
    published via the W3C</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Open Web
    Foundation is a possibility too.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; graphical example
    of the ontology (scroll down) <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/ARPServlet?URI=http%3A%2F%2Ffoaf.me%2Fah1&amp;PARSE=Parse+URI%3A+&amp;TRIPLES_AND_GRAPH=PRINT_BOTH&amp;FORMAT=PNG_EMBED">
    http://www.w3.org/RDF/Validator/ARPServlet?URI=http%3A%2F%2Ffoaf.me%2Fah1&amp;PARSE=Parse+URI%3A+&amp;TRIPLES_AND_GRAPH=PRINT_BOTH&amp;FORMAT=PNG_EMBED</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>the scribe will have to go soon</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; mischat, thanks for
    scribing</p>

    <p class='phone'>np</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
    $Date: 2009/12/09 17:21:31 $
  </address>

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    <hr />

    <h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
    before finalizing the minutes.]<br />
    <pre>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135  of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/">http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/</a>

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/WebId/WebID/
Found Scribe: mischat
Found Scribe: mischat
Inferring ScribeNick: mischat

WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found, but dash separators were found.
Defaulting to -dashTopics option.


WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: AX Anita AnitaD MacTed OpenLink_Software P18 P32 Todo bblfish bblfish_ caribou cert cperey danbri hhalpin melvster mischa pchampin petef rreck timbl tinkster trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
        &lt;dbooth&gt; Present: dbooth jonathan mary
        &lt;dbooth&gt; Present+ amy

Found Date: 09 Dec 2009
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2009/12/09-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/12/09-swxg-minutes.html</a>
People with action items:

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.


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