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  <title>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference -- 25 Nov
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  <h1>Social Web Incubator Group Teleconference</h1>

  <h2>25 Nov 2009</h2>

  <p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-irc">IRC
  log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd>hhalpin, yoshiaki, AlexPassant, tpa, +1.785.583.aaaa,
      tinkster, mischat, +1.314.683.aabb, Carine, +0797094aacc,
      MacTed, petef, Adam</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>hhalpin</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>tinkster</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>

        <li><a href="#item02">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
        2009-11-25T16:00-17:00GMT</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item03">User Stories</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item04">Final Report</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item05">For Final Report</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item06">Eran Hammer-Lahav of Yahoo</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">

    <h3 id="item02">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
    2009-11-25T16:00-17:00GMT</h3>


    <p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>

    <p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Date: 25 November
    2009</p>


    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; scribe:
    tinkster</p>


    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: to
    approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 18th November 2009 as a true
    record</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/18-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/18-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>yoshiaki</cite>&gt; i see</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Minutes need cleaning
    up, but everyone OK with them apart from that?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: approved
    SWXG WG Weekly -- 18th November 2009 as a true record</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; yoshiaki: <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html">http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: to meet
    again Wed. Decemeber 2nd?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Meet again next
    week?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> No speaker planned for
    next week. What should we do?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Chris Messina next
    week.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; very nice</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://activitystrea.ms/">http://activitystrea.ms/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>petef:</cite> Chris Messina has been
    confirmed for next week - ActivityStrea.ms</p>

    <h3 id="item03">User Stories</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; one action was
    closed</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; I just closed it</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Any progress since last
    week? We should probably just wrap them up, drop unfinished
    ones. Any issues with that?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserNarratives">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserNarratives</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> It seems close to
    "done". We shouldn't spend too much more time on this.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; what is the
    relationship between the UserStories and the UserNarratives</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; we talked about this
    last week</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; think the groups were
    already there harry</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> This needs a strong
    editor. Henry, Oshani and Tim have sort of volunteered.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Groups">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Groups</a>
    is empty</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I am happy to step
    you through the process of making this is HTML document...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tpa:</cite> I was talking with Henry
    about this, making them more readable. Dan A gave me an OK to
    flesh out this idea.<br />
    ... This is on the User Narratives wiki page.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserNarratives">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserNarratives</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> What should a
    roll-your-own-Social-Network tool implement?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Ah, I see now.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tpa:</cite> There are three types of
    users we want to address - end users, developer concerns,
    business concerns.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; This page is
    great!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 tpa, the list is
    too long.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; my understanding was
    that they were a way to weave together the user scenarios in to
    a larger background</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tpa:</cite> Aim is to take a big list
    and make it more readable/consumable/relatable.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> What can we do to
    help?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tpa:</cite> We have four narratives.
    (Fourth one is about corporate usage.)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; I can do a prison
    story if you like</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Which actions?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Which action was
    done last week?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; hehe bblfish</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tpa:</cite> End user story can be
    written by tpa. Need help with developer and business
    stories.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; ;-)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; what do you mean
    business standpoi nt?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; i think tpa means from
    a startup standpoint</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; by business stories
    do you mean corporate story?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tpa:</cite> This may be a matter of
    taking existing user stories and considering them more from a
    developer/business angle.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cperey:</cite> Different between
    corporate and business stories?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; can you put a URL to
    the third story?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserNarratives">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserNarratives</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; Zoe's ...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tpa:</cite> Corporate = social networks
    in a corporate context. Business = tech is not an end in
    itself; social networks are businesses.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserNarratives#Zoe.27s_angel_trust_ponders_funding_Twitbook">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserNarratives#Zoe.27s_angel_trust_ponders_funding_Twitbook</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; thinks maybe cperey
    could run with the business angle</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; agree christine</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>cperey:</cite> Third story seems to be
    about how social networks can make money. Is that right?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; that's where I want
    to be so I'm happy to drive it!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tpa:</cite> Yes - precisely. I'd welcome
    your help on this cperey.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; i would like to
    help with <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserNarratives#Trent_is_developing_Twitbook">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserNarratives#Trent_is_developing_Twitbook</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; Yes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Should these be
    actions?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tpa:</cite> Adam is taking lead on
    corporate (4th) story.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Adam:</cite> yes, that's right.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tpa:</cite> Can we talk more about this
    next week?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; peer pressure :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; sorry btw, to have
    been out of the loop for the last few weeks</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> We've got a backlog of
    actions. We'll put overdueness indicators beside each of them
    and start dropping the ones that seem static.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Let's say end of
    Dec. or Jan.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; +1</p><a name=
    "action01" id="action01"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> cperey to flesh out corporate stories
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-108
    - Flesh out corporate stories [on Christine Perey - due
    2009-12-02].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; Christine is not
    taking "Corporate stories"</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mischat:</cite> User stories have one
    about Trent, which looks good for developer narrative.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Oh, wait a sec..the
    "angel" story, right cperey?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I.e. the "business"
    story?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I'm taking Business
    strategies narrative (#3)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tobyink:</cite> I can have a look at
    that, yes.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; OK, will delete
    that previous action after meeting</p><a name="action02" id=
    "action02"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> cperey to take business narrative
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-109
    - Take business narrative [on Christine Perey - due
    2009-12-02].</p><a name="action03" id="action03"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> adam to take on corporate story
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-110
    - Take on corporate story [on Adam Boyet - due 2009-12-02].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; nice one
    tinkster</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mischat:</cite> I'll make a start on
    that and liase with tobyink and tpa.</p><a name="action04" id=
    "action04"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> mischat to start on developer story
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
    find user - mischat</p><a name="action05" id="action05"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> tanglade to take on developer
    narrative and user stories with mischat [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Could not create
    new action (failed to parse response from server) - please
    contact sysreq with the details of what happened.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Could not create
    new action (unparseable data in server response: local variable
    'd' referenced before assignment) - please contact sysreq with
    the details of what happened.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; hhalpin: my name on
    the w3c is mtiffiel</p><a name="action06" id="action06"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> mtiffiel to start on developer story
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action06</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-112
    - Start on developer story [on Mischa Tuffield - due
    2009-12-02].</p>

    <h3 id="item04">Final Report</h3>

    <h3 id="item05">For Final Report</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; there you go
    mhausenblas we are on Final Report now ;)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; yes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; who?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; tim berners-lee</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> We have lots of writeups
    of speakers.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; ah, is there a
    URL?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; :-)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; when is it due
    ?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; we need to make
    recommendations</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> For final report, see if
    timbl can talk about his big vision; I'm happy to consolidate
    the various small pieces around that.</p><a name="action07" id=
    "action07"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> adam to
    write up the boeing use case for enterprise social networks
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action07</a>]</p><a name="action08"
    id="action08"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> oshani to
    reframe the geolocation/intent/portability [recorded in
    <a href="http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action08">
    http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action08</a>]</p><a name="action09"
    id="action09"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> bblfish
    to relabel data protection use case to be about controlled
    access and takedown to data "about" you [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action09">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action09</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; Good idea. His
    vision was not entirely clear to me, so I think him writing
    something about it would be great</p><a name="action10" id=
    "action10"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> bblfish
    to merge Family and Group access usecases [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action10">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action10</a>]</p><a name="action11"
    id="action11"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> hhalpin
    explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action11">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action11</a>]</p><a name="action12"
    id="action12"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> DKA to
    write-up output of XG meeting next Tuesday [recorded in
    <a href="http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action12">
    http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action12</a>]</p>

    <p class='phone'>tpa?: His vision was changing the architecture
    for how this social data is stored and accessed.</p><a name=
    "action13" id="action13"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> DKA to
    send notes to camp to Social Web XG wiki and BarCamp.org
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action13">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action13</a>]</p><a name="action14"
    id="action14"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> DKA to
    summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread
    knowledge of these efforts among W3C members. [recorded in
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action14">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action14</a>]</p><a name="action15"
    id="action15"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> Mischa to
    describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how
    they change between now and the end of the XG. [recorded in
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action15">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action15</a>]</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> I'll try to get timbl
    involved.</p><a name="action16" id="action16"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> Adam to
    write up Matt Lee's talk [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action16">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action16</a>]</p><a name="action17"
    id="action17"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> mtuffied
    to put up wiki page about social networks deploying these
    technologies. [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action17">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action17</a>]</p><a name="action18"
    id="action18"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> oshani to
    write up David Recordon and Luke Shepard talk [recorded in
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action18">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action18</a>]</p><a name="action19"
    id="action19"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to try to get TimBL to either
    talk or write-up his use-cases [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action19">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action19</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-113
    - Try to get TimBL to either talk or write-up his use-cases [on
    Harry Halpin - due 2009-12-02].</p>

    <p class='phone'>tpa?: Tim's vision is that the data is stored
    in the cloud and you'd use apps to process that.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; The final report: we
    need to make recommendations</p>

    <h3 id="item06">Eran Hammer-Lahav of Yahoo</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Eran's gotten OAuth off
    the ground, simplified XRD, etc. Eran can you introduce your
    work?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; person who just
    entered</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> The basic premise is to
    bootstrap new social protocols on top of existing web arch;
    allow people to identify themselves using (interrupted)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>claudio</cite>&gt; Zakin, mute me</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> OAuth takes care of
    security/authorisation part.<br />
    ... But how do we find out what services a person uses, their
    preferences, their friends, etc?<br />
    ... Started by looking at how to make OAuth easier.<br />
    ... Has expanded into 5 or 6 specs across multiple
    standardisation bodies.<br />
    ... It's a big/common problem. Value in solving it
    consistently.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 to links being
    fundamental building block</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Links are a fundamental
    building block. If I've got a URI, I can get a representation
    of that and find more links from it.<br />
    ... Using HTML &lt;link&gt; elements we started to run into
    some problems.<br />
    ... Adding the links changes to documents and violates the
    purity of the document.<br />
    ... Retrieving the documents is a lot of work.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>PhilA2</cite>&gt; See <a href=
    "http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06">
    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> So we've been looking at
    the HTTP "Link" header which was taken out of HTTP 1.1 but
    we're trying to bring back.<br />
    ... Allows links in the HTTP header itself.<br />
    ... HTTP also used to have LINK and UNLINK methods in addition
    to GET, POST, etc.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I vaguely remember
    hearing/reading from Roy that the removal of "Link" from HTTP
    was a cut-and-paste error :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/Protocols/9707-link-header.html">http://www.w3.org/Protocols/9707-link-header.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jar</cite>&gt; no, that was removal of
    Link: header, not LINK method</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Still looking for ways to
    make this better. Sometimes resources don't have a
    representation at all, so GET/HEAD don't return anything
    useful.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; ah</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; meant link header
    :)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Yadis/XRDS uses content
    negotiation to do this. You'd make a request for a URI and ask
    for XRDS and get a description.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; interesting point
    re misbehaving proxies for conneg.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> But this doesn't seem to be
    an appropriate use of conneg. And big consumers like Yahoo
    refused to use it because of the risk of broken proxies.<br />
    ... But how about using a pattern which maps between resource
    URIs and description URIs. We spent 6 months trying to figure
    out where to store that mapping pattern.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Am a bit confused
    about relationship between host-meta and .well-known</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> We came up with two
    solutions. One was a well-known document called first
    site-meta, then host-meta, then .well-known.<br />
    ... There isn't a good way of storing this information other
    than well-known locations. (Other than DNS, more on that
    later.)<br />
    ... HTTP OPTIONS looked promising, but not cachable or widely
    implemented/understood.<br />
    ... LRDD tries to unify all these ideas. If you have a resource
    identified by a URI, there are three paths to find descriptions
    for it. (Not all of them will always be available.)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>PhilA2</cite>&gt; Eran's excellent
    summary of this issue from September 2008 is at <a href=
    "http://hueniverse.com/2008/09/discovery-and-http/">http://hueniverse.com/2008/09/discovery-and-http/</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> 1. &lt;link&gt; elements
    within document; 2. Link HTTP headers; 3. host-meta.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 order of
    precedence</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> LRDD started as a very
    generic solution, but we plan on making it less generic because
    host-meta/.well-known provides alternative building-blocks for
    more flexible solutions.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; I had a question
    earlier</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>PhilA2</cite>&gt; This document
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect">http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/mime-respect</a>
    suggests that HTTP Link should be the first/most
    authoritative</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> What if different
    sources of metadata contradict each other? What are the social
    web use cases?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> If you use OpenID, you're
    starting with an identifier. The application then needs to
    figure out from that how to authenticate you.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Exactly, that's
    where LRDD or some notion of "authoritative" metadata algorithm
    would be useful.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Because OpenID is a
    security protocol, it's important that all apps use the same
    approach - otherwise conflicting data could be very
    problematic.<br />
    ... OpenID thus has a very well-defined order of precedence
    when looking for links.<br />
    ... For LRDD, when you take a URI, you need to figure out which
    description methods are available to you.<br />
    ... Once you know your options, the issues are which do you try
    first, and what happens if you get different response
    codes?<br />
    ... Link header is defined differently to other headers. A
    "Link" header on an HTTP 401 page is a link from the error
    page, not a link from the thing you asked for.<br />
    ... If there's a 303, do you follow the redirection and use the
    links at the destination; or both?<br />
    ... Different people will want to take different
    approaches.<br />
    ... Some will want to slurp up as much data as possible; some
    will want to stop as soon as they find what they need.<br />
    ... LRDD right now is essentially an inventory of your
    options.<br />
    ... Another way we could have written LRDD would be to say
    which order you should check descriptions.<br />
    ... Right now we want to move to a very deterministic approach,
    because the building blocks are still there for those who want
    to do things differently.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/">http://www.iana.org/assignments/relation/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>PhilA2</cite>&gt; See <a href=
    "http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml">
    http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> &lt;link&gt; doesn't
    have a centralised registry. HTML5 has a wiki page. IANA might
    be starting a registry.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; all we have right
    now is ATOM :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>PhilA2</cite>&gt; (The link I posted
    was for Atom)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> mnot started resurrecting
    Link and merging it with the Atom &lt;link&gt; registry.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Maybe just update
    that Atom page?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Or maybe not...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Some relationships have
    very specific meanings for particular media - e.g.
    rel="stylesheet" in HTML.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>PhilA2</cite>&gt; HTTP Link Header
    draft establishes a new registry. See <a href=
    "http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06#section-6.2">
    http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-06#section-6.2</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; sounds like
    rdfa</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> People expect relationships
    to have semantic meanings like "parent" or "copyright". Some
    people want to restrict the media type / format of the linked
    object.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; well, this would be
    a way to give something like "foaf:Person" a shortname</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; and solve the
    rather infamous namespace issue, i.e.what if people forget the
    namespace for certain well-known RDF vocabularies?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> We'll probably have two
    types of relationship - some which are useful across different
    contexts - and these will be registered.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; mhausenblas, you
    wanted to ask on XRD deployment (re update on <a href=
    "http://linkeddata.deri.ie/tr/2009-discovery)">http://linkeddata.deri.ie/tr/2009-discovery)</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Other than that you can use
    a URI for a relationship type and you don't need to register
    it.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; sure, but the
    beauty of rdf is that you can say anything, why have to wait
    for a standard to be drawn out</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; +1 tinkster</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>PhilA2</cite>&gt; yeay!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 for having a
    centralized registries</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> For HTML5 we hope to avoid
    the need for different registry.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>mhausenblas:</cite> Do you have any info
    on the XRD deployment base?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> it's going through OASIS.
    We've got another change to align better with Atom's links that
    still needs to happen.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; mmm gmail foaf
    page?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> In terms of deployment,
    it's used in Gmail/Yahoo for WebFinger. Not much data there.
    Gmail point to some FOAF.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; is that out already
    ?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> We're waiting for some of
    the missing pieces to drop into place, especially LRDD.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> What's the relationship
    between .well-known and host-meta?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; has one been
    deprecated?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Originally wanted to have
    one document called site-meta which would be *the* place to
    link to other documents. No more well-known URIs ever.<br />
    ... It was then renamed to host-meta because site is not the
    right term.<br />
    ... But people said it would never work - it adds too much
    indirection.<br />
    ... Concerns that "/host-meta" might already be used on some
    hosts.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Ah, good point re
    someone getting /hoste-meta</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> So instead we decided that
    any well-known paths are OK, so long as they start with
    "/.well-known/" and are registered.<br />
    ... But rather than require people to register well-known
    documents, they can still use host-meta to store data if that's
    more suitable.<br />
    ... An HTTP server on port 80 also has authority to provide
    host-meta data for other services on other ports (but the same
    host name).</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Any more questions?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jar</cite>&gt; TAG is trying to track
    this, but there needs to be more coordination</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; are you there
    tinkster</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; i can scribe</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jar</cite>&gt; (actually I meant more
    coordination within W3C!)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> I'm in constant touch with
    W3C TAG; make sure they're aware of this work and provide
    feedback.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; does the W3C need
    to track the LRDD, and similar outputs from the OpenID/OAuth
    world</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Role of W3C should be
    formats, more ways of describing metadata, making RDF easier to
    use for descriptions.<br />
    ... W3C doesn't seem agile enough to support these communities.
    That's a bigger topic - how do we get the audience of the W3C
    to participate in these ideas without slowing down spec
    generation?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>PhilA2</cite>&gt; Can't help noting
    that POWDER is all about making RDF about lots of resources
    easier to publish ;-)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jar</cite>&gt; among other things, W3C
    should decide how to advise use of these link mechanisms for
    nose-following... is POWDER the whole story?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; example host-meta:
    <a href=
    "http://gmail.com/.well-known/host-meta">http://gmail.com/.well-known/host-meta</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Maybe eventually we would
    want to turn to W3C or similar for standardisation once the
    specs are more stable.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jar</cite>&gt; I mean RDF
    nose-following specifically</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>PhilA2</cite>&gt; Even I wouldn't
    claim POWDER's the whole story jar!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> This has been discussed
    extensively on TAG, so they're paying attention. TAG issues 62
    and 63 relate to it.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jar</cite>&gt; (POWDER needs credit
    &amp; standing. gets overlooked)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> It's been discussed a
    lot recently what should be changed with RDF.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; interesting
    hajons</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> At TPAC we discussed
    what the W3C could do to become more agile. Incubator groups
    seem a good start, but what would be better?<br />
    ... Can the W3C give advice on, e.g. how IP issues can be
    resolved?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> W3C participation is very
    expensive.<br />
    ... Open Web Foundation exists because a lot of people don't
    want to work within established standards bodies.<br />
    ... Standards bodies can address some of these issues, but
    others cannot be addressed because of the very nature of
    standards bodies.<br />
    ... OAuth started as a bunch of people hacking at something to
    try to make it work, but wanted a more "adult" spec, so turned
    to IETF,<br />
    ... If XRD hadn't started within OASIS, then I would have taken
    XRD Simple to the W3C once it was getting mature.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>caribou</cite>&gt; waiting until they
    are in stable state is not saving time</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Little communication
    between standards bodies and communities.<br />
    ... Standards bodies need to look at how we can support this
    work without getting jealous and competing.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Right now W3C is
    concentrating a lot on APIs.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; PhilA, you wanted to
    chip in</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> We'd like to run our
    final report by you.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> Sure.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>PhilA:</cite> Device Application Working
    Group has taken ideas from outside the W3C.<br />
    ... I met Eran just over a year ago. If I'd seen XRD before we
    started POWDER (or vice versa) we might not have ended up with
    them both.<br />
    ... Some competition is inevitable because not everybody
    communicates with everybody else.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> I meant more about
    gratuitous competing standards.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Academic journals - if
    you have a good paper, there's often only one journal it should
    be sent to.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; or is that
    problematic?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; i have to go now
    people, will follow on IRC</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Perhaps standards should
    be endorsed by multiple different organisations. Perhaps W3C
    should be able to say, "for this use case, take a look at this
    spec".</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> W3C stamp means more than
    "this is a good idea" - it has e.g. IP consequences.<br />
    ... With XRD we spent a year throwing things out.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; easier to let
    people who start something finish it - like that point.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hajons</cite>&gt; have to go. thanks
    for a great talk</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> But spec writing doesn't
    need to take long. It would be good if there was an easy path
    for turning a community spec into a standard.<br />
    ... The W3C already has the right expertise.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; well, we could
    imagine something like OWF or something jumping in where the XG
    process is right here.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> I'm involved in this work
    because of my day-job with Yahoo.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Thanks Eran. We'll be
    wrapping up now.<br />
    ... Final Report should be in draft form in Jan/Feb. We'd like
    to hear any ideas you've got.<br />
    ... What would you suggest we say in our summary of
    OAuth/WRAP?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; At some point, we
    should have serious discussion on maybe this topic - how to
    avoid rubber-stamping?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Eran:</cite> I'm happy to talk about
    this in the future. Now that it's 8am it's not so bad!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; bye all</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Meeting
    adjourned.</p>

    <p class='phone'>Fin.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; trackbot, end
    meeting</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; very valuable</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> adam to take on
  corporate story [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> cperey to flesh
  out corporate stories [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> cperey to take
  business narrative [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to try to
  get TimBL to either talk or write-up his use-cases [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action19">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action19</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> mischat to start
  on developer story [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> mtiffiel to start
  on developer story [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action06</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> tanglade to take
  on developer narrative and user stories with mischat [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />

  &nbsp;<br />
  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Adam to write
  up Matt Lee's talk [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action16">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action16</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> adam to write
  up the boeing use case for enterprise social networks [recorded
  in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action07</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> bblfish to
  merge Family and Group access usecases [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action10">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action10</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> bblfish to
  relabel data protection use case to be about controlled access
  and takedown to data "about" you [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action09">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action09</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> DKA to send
  notes to camp to Social Web XG wiki and BarCamp.org [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action13">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action13</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> DKA to
  summarize OSLO and geoLocation conversation in order to spread
  knowledge of these efforts among W3C members. [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action14">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action14</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> DKA to
  write-up output of XG meeting next Tuesday [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action12">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action12</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin
  explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases
  [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action11">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action11</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Mischa to
  describe/implement a report of terms and conditions, and how they
  change between now and the end of the XG. [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action15">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action15</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> mtuffied to
  put up wiki page about social networks deploying these
  technologies. [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action17">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action17</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> oshani to
  reframe the geolocation/intent/portability [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action08">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action08</a>]<br />

  <strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> oshani to
  write up David Recordon and Luke Shepard talk [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action18">http://www.w3.org/2009/11/25-swxg-minutes.html#action18</a>]<br />

  &nbsp;<br />
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
    $Date: 2009/11/30 14:08:39 $
  </address>

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