02-mediafrag-minutes.html
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<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"
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<head>
<meta name="generator" content=
"HTML Tidy for Linux (vers 6 November 2007), see www.w3.org" />
<title>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference -- 02 Nov
2010</title>
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"http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/base.css" />
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<meta content="Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference"
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"Content-Type" />
</head>
<body>
<p><a href="http://www.w3.org/"><img src=
"http://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home" alt="W3C" border="0" height=
"48" width="72" /></a></p>
<h1>- DRAFT -</h1>
<h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>
<h2>02 Nov 2010</h2>
<p>See also: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>Davy, Raphael, Dave_Singer, Yves, Jack, Silvia,
Philip</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>Raphael</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>raphael</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">1. Action Points review</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">summarizing yesterday's
achievements</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">2. IETF and TAG updates</a></li>
<li><a href="#item04">3. Comments on the spec</a></li>
<li><a href="#item05">4. Use of a media fragment URI in a
browser bar</a></li>
<li><a href="#item06">5. Extensibility</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='phone'></p>
<p class='phone'></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 02 November
2010</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> scribe: raphael</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> scribenick:
raphael</p>
<h3 id="item01">1. Action Points review</h3>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Do we have Zakim set
up?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Will the France
bridge work today?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>davy</cite>> scribenick: davy</p>
<h3 id="item02">summarizing yesterday's achievements</h3>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Sorry, I can't hear
at all, will try the US bridge instead</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>raphael:</cite> hours in NPT time codes
will be optional</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ACTIOn-192?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-192 -- Davy
Van Deursen to update the specification to state what the
processing should do when media fragments request (time
dimension) does not match exactly how the media item has been
encoded -- due 2010-11-08 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/192">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/192</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>raphael:</cite> SMPTE time codes that do
not match the encoding settings of the media resource result in
an error case<br />
... perhaps 416 is too strong for this case, should we change
this?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Zakim: mute me</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> send a 200 instead</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: when
the server sees a mismatch in requested SMPTE time code and the
encoding settings of the media resource, it will return the
whole resource (200)</strong></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> => code updated
(JavaCC grammar) with optional hours</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>raphael:</cite> comment from Philip:
which pixels should we use (physical pixels or display
pixels)<br />
... we decided to use display pixels</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> CSS is not relevant
:)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> This is not a CSS
issue.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> see <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/">http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/#the-px-unit">http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/#the-px-unit</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Yes Philip, but it
is confusing to reuse a term to mean something else that
something which has an accepted definition</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ... so we are right
to define what we mean without talking to CSS pixels</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ... like you said,
this has nothing to do with CSS</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Didn't we already do
that yesterday?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> yes, I'm
summarizing the discussion</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> 2nd paragraph of
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#naming-space">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#naming-space</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> No, only the media
resource itself has an influence</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> I agree</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>dsinger</cite>> css pixel latest
definitions here <<a href=
"http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/specs/css2.1/px-unit%3E">http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/specs/css2.1/px-unit></a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>raphael:</cite> other discussion: should
we specify how media fragments are rendered in a browser?<br />
... we created a section 7.1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Nov/0002.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Nov/0002.html</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> raphael: can you
paste links to the mails/bugs you've sent?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> foolip: see above</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> MIME type definition never
includes rendering specifications</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I disagree, I think
it's our problem.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Dave: presentation
should be consistent in all context</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> One might say that
the problem is that we have ambiguous syntax, both for t= and
xywh=</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> no, ambiguous
semantics, rather</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> I'm not sure I see
the ambiguity you're talking about</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> the semantic is
unambiguous, displaying it is undefined.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Jack: I would like
that implementers propose both choices (show focus and
crop)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> (undefined, so
ambiguous :) )</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Dave:</cite> so that the choice is up to
the author</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>pchampin</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> if the author decides about
the rendering, the rendering should be specified in the URI</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> distinction between # and ?
is not an option for rendering indications</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> I observe that the
room is more and more inclined to add a "crop" keyword</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I would caution
against that, unless you have an implementor willing to
implement both xywh and crop.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Philip, will you
only implement the crop aspect?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I know that
implementing highlight seems not very useful, but I'm not
saying that we *will* implement any other behavior.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> That's the extent
(lack of) commitment :)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> OK, so your
priority 1 will be crop (sprite) ... and of you have resources,
highlight, right?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> No, I don't think
there's a reason to ever implement highlighting, and that
maaaaybe, given resources, crop could be worthwhile</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> I observe that the
group is willing to take an important decision, changing the
semantics of rendering spatial media fragments and defaulting
to crop</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Philip will
definitively implement "show focus" in context for the temporal
dimension, and possibly only "crop" for the spatial
dimension</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Uh, I never said
definite about anything.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ok Philip :-) I
just over interpret what you have said, feel free to
correct</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> For #t=10,20 the
most useful behavior to implement is focusing, and we *might*
implement that, as you saw at FOMS</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> For
#xywh=10,10,20,20 the most useful behavior is cropping, but I'm
not sure we'd implement even that.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> It depends on what
other browser vendors think, really.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> thanks for the
clarification</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> #xywh with cropping
is actually more useful to images than to video</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> e.g. handing over
spliced images to a JS API</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> interesting
question: what if somebody wants to highlight an area in a
cropped frame?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> you can define a
highlight window to be the cropped part</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>>
#crop=40,40,20,20&xywh=10,10,20,20 would work - but not if
we only allowed one</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> Yves, how?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> img src=foo z-index 0,
effect-blur + img src=foo#xywh=.... z-index 1, positionning
x,y</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> and you got the
higlight</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> i would like that there is
a CSS styling attribute that indicates if its in or out of
focus</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> yeah, but that's not
handed on through a URL</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> we don't need any
spatial media fragments to do any of this in CSS</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> oups, no I don't
understand what you mean?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> you can do both,
cropping and highlighting in HTML with a <video> or
<audio> element and CSS, you don't need to provide those
coordinates in a URL</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> raphael: thanks</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>silvia:</cite> if we rely on CSS to
specify the rendering of spatial fragments, we should rely on
CSS for the rendering of all media fragment axes</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> if I read silvia,
higlighting is CSS driven, cropping is #xywh=</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> What was the last
sentence?</p>
<p class='phone'>video { temp_frag: highlight; spat_frag: crop
)</p>
<p class='phone'>an example of a CSS statement?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Let them use image
maps :)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> from a browser POV
we have to make clear statements what happens in a compatible
manner across browsers when the URL ends up in the @src
attribute of <video> or <img>, and what happens in
the URL bar</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>dsinger</cite>> how about "the
normal user-agent behavior is to crop to the indicated spacial
and/or temporal region; however note that users and user-agents
can easily remove the fragment identifier and view the
remainder, and so authors should not rely on the cropping, and
user agents may employ other behavior (such as offering users
the choice between crop and focus)"</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>dsinger</cite>> ?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Room agrees thay by
default, the behavior should be crop</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Why should we expect
them to be consistent, when they're completely different
dimensions?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> Because that is
called "elegance"</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> scribenick:
raphael</p>
<h3 id="item03">2. IETF and TAG updates</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> what we need to do is
writing a small IETF document explaining that for video/* the
default behavior is what we are saying in our spec<br />
... correction: what we need to do is not writing nything<br />
... I have discussed with him and we need to write it</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> s/ng</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> > s/Larry/what we
need to do/</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Larry Masinter?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> this document will have to
be written when we are in CR stage</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>ISSUE:</cite> Create a IETF draft at CR
stage explaining what the media fragment semantics will be for
video/*, image/*, audio/*</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ISSUE-20 -
Create a IETF draft at CR stage explaining what the media
fragment semantics will be for video/*, image/*, audio/* ;
please complete additional details at <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/20/edit">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/20/edit</a>
.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> And what about
application/ogg then? Seems like a fragile approach.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> In reality, browsers
will apply this in a certain *context* (<video>), not for
a certain *MIME type*. It would be nice to not pretend
otherwise.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> TAG is discussing with IETF
for enforcing them to update their rules for forcing the
definition of fragment semantics in mime type</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> foolip, image#xywh
might be, CSS for example,</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> to define sprites</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I'm not sure how
that would work, my gut feeling is it's in the wrong layer for
it to work out.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> I don't think we will get a
review from TAG now</p>
<h3 id="item04">3. Comments on the spec</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> who is on the URI
mailing list?<br />
... are you Silvia?<br />
... I want to talk to the mail you forward</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Discussing:</cite> <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Oct/0042.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Oct/0042.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>See also: <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2010Oct/thread.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/uri/2010Oct/thread.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>The author is very confused</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> what is happening depends
on the mime type, not on the scheme<br />
... we trust Silvia to deal with this very well</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'>We also received comments from the Media
Annotations WG</p><a name="action01" id="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to address comments from the
Media Annotations WG and draft a reply [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-196
- Address comments from the Media Annotations WG and draft a
reply [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2010-11-09].</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> yes, I am on the URI
mailing list</p>
<h3 id="item05">4. Use of a media fragment URI in a browser
bar</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I argue that
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xx5kBqxyaHE#t=310s should trigger a
Range Request</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> if typed in the
browser bar, the only way of doing a range request safely would
be to use a unit that is compatible with what we expect, so
seconds</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> we cannot really enforce
anything</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Incidentally, #t=30
on text/html resources is the most useful, but unfortunately
not something we can standardize or implement</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> (as it default to
return the whole thing back). Sending byte range requests will
add latency and be generally bad in taht case</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Silvia:</cite> but I will recommend
server developers to propagate the info from the video element
to the url bar?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> if we trigger a
speciic processing in case of html video, it should be part of
html5 then ;)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Yes, but I doubt we
can overload fragment identifiers for HTML without breaking the
web</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>>
example.com/video.ogv?v=1&t=310s</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> foolip, that was not
raphael's point, his point was, what should the browser do
before knowing it's html or video</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>>
example.com/video.html?v=1&t=310s</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> without the context of
being in a video element</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> that would signify
to the server to change the @src on the first video to an
offset with #t=310s</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> ok, we are talking
about the situation where the browser doesn't know what type of
resource it is getting</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> Silvia,: I'm puzzled we
are still discussing this ... we have discussed since one year
to use the custom units definition of HTTP1.1 for one year, for
exactly this reason<br />
... my argument is, either you are in context (of a video
element), and then, go for recipe 1, <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-protocol-UA-mapped">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-protocol-UA-mapped</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> using byte ranges in a
optimistic there won't help unless we are in the HTML5
<video> case, and if so, the way of using it ought to be
defined in html5</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> or you don't know the
context (url bar), and then, go for recipe 2, <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-protocol-Server-mapped">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-protocol-Server-mapped</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> it depends if browsers want
to implement it<br />
... that will be the case only for the time dimension, and if
UA wants to implement the seconds unit for the
Range</p><a name="action02" id="action02"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to also add in the intro of
Section 5 a paragraph explaining the optimistic processing of
fragments (using ranges in seconds) [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-197
- Also add in the intro of Section 5 a paragraph explaining the
optimistic processing of fragments (using ranges in seconds)
[on Raphaël Troncy - due 2010-11-09].</p>
<p class='phone'>[coffee break]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I didn't bring up
this topic, raphael, I do not disagree with anything you
said</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I thought we were
discussing my email and the suggestion I had for server
apps</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> we are resuming
discussions and we need to be efficient<br />
... we will discuss and resolve extensibility issue in 45 min
max<br />
... and then vote on the cropping issue for spatial media
fragment</p>
<p class='phone'>Philip, Silvia, please, be on this channel in
45 min for voting</p>
<h3 id="item06">5. Extensibility</h3>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-181?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-181 -- Jack
Jansen to investigate how escaping is defined in uri spec --
due 2010-07-07 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/181">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/181</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> the URI spec does not say
anything about further sub-division between delims and
sub-delims</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>See:</cite> <a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Nov/0000.html">
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Nov/0000.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> if we first parse between
& and =, and then do %-decode, we do the right thing<br />
... but we need to write down that %-decode must happen after
the splitting</p>
<p class='phone'>close ACTION-181</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-181
Investigate how escaping is defined in uri spec closed</p>
<p class='phone'>Section 4.1: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#general-structure">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#general-structure</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> %-decoding of
non-(delims/sub-delims) may happen anytime, so we consider it
is done for the sake of readability of the grammar</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I suggest to add this
sentence in the specification</p>
<p class='phone'>close ACTION-185</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-185 Book
zakim for the 2 days meeting of the group on Mon 1st and Tue
2nd Nov closed</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-189</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-189?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-189 --
Raphaël Troncy to put the top-level production rules back into
the document (in section 4.3.5 or 4.1) -- due 2010-10-06 --
OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/189">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/189</a></p>
<p class='phone'>Old proposal was</p>
<p class='phone'>mediasegment = namesegment / axissegment</p>
<p class='phone'>axissegment = ( timesegment / spacesegment /
tracksegment ) *( "&" ( timesegment / spacesegment /
tracksegment )</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> New proposal is:</p>
<p class='phone'>mediasegment = namesegment / axissegment /
extensionsegment</p>
<p class='phone'>extensionsegment = extensionprefix '='
extensionparam</p>
<p class='phone'>+ prose to state that a media segment cannot
be only an extension segment</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> + warning to say that
it should not conflict with an existing axis</p>
<p class='phone'>extensionprefix and extensionsegment are like
the values (pchar - the subdelims)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Proposal:</cite> vote for changing the
top level production rules into this proposal</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> +0</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I invite everybody to
vote</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> -0</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>davy</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'>+1</p>
<p class='phone'>Provisory results: 2 for, 2 abstain, 0
against</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> I will wait for the votes
of Silvia and Philip before resolving</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> next issue, how do we treat
values and units that we don't understand in dimensions of
media fragments?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> should we allow
this?<br />
... example: #t=morning ? #t=wallclock:10,25 ?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> I think we should not have
them (both)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Davy:</cite> I agree with Jack</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> if we get extensibility on
other axis, then I think we should have extensibility for units
and values we don't know, for consistency</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> I agree with
Yves on the consistency argument, but here practicality beats
purity.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I agree with Jack and
Davy, we should be limited to the units and values we can parse
and not allow the rest</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> I would really
not like the extensibility but accept it for practical reasons
(hence +0). This is a bridge too far, however.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Proposal:</cite> vote +1 if you want to
modify the grammar in order to allow extensibility on units and
values we don't currently understand, and -1 if you don't want
such a grammar change</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='phone'>-1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>davy</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> ~0</p>
<p class='phone'>Provisory results: 3 against changing the
grammar, 1 abstain</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> I will wait for the votes
of Silvia and Philip before resolving</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> ok, it's going to
end at 12</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> can you wait?</p>
<p class='phone'>Yes</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> thanks</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> uh, it was
apparently 12:15</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> anyway, I'll type
what I think right now</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I think
"extensibility" is not really the issue, and I don't think we
need to change the grammar for this reason</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> However, the
processing should tolerate (by ignoring) #t=morning or
#t=wallclock:10,25</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> That has nothing to
do with syntax or validity.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> So for the
extensionsegment syntax change, I would vote again, as it
doesn't fix ISSUE-19</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> ISSUE-19 requires
more sweeping changes to the spec</p>
<p class='phone'>Philip, we will wait for 12:15 you're back,
don't worry</p>
<p class='phone'>thanks for your comment, and by "again", I
guess you meant "against" ?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> yes</p>
<p class='phone'>furthermore, everybody agrees that #t=morning
or #t=wallclock:10,25 should be ignored (good point)</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> these are not and will
never be media fragments 1.0</p>
<p class='phone'>ISSUE-19?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ISSUE-19 --
Parsing must be defined normatively in the MF spec itself --
open</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/19">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/19</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Philip:</cite> there is nothing in the
grammar that says where %-decoding and utf-8 decoding
happen<br />
... perhaps the %-decoding is specified in the uri spec</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> %-decoding is indeed
defined in rfc3986 (especially for non delims/sub-delims)</p>
<p class='phone'>Philip, it is written in 4.2</p>
<p class='phone'>A specification of the parsing algorithm to
extract these from an actual URI can be found in D.1 Processing
name-value components and D.2 Processing name-value lists. Note
that the URI works on octet strings, but the parsed name-value
pairs are unicode strings, since percent-encoding is resolved.
Percent-decoding of non-(delims/sub-delims) may happen anytime,
so we consider it is done for the sake of readability of the
grammar. The following definitions</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Philip:</cite> let's go back to
ISSUE-19</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I agree with
issue-19</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/19">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/19</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I think the proposed
changes are trying to realize the requirements that you wrote
in issue-19</p>
<p class='phone'>yes silvia</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> Old proposal was</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> mediasegment =
namesegment / axissegment</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> axissegment = (
timesegment / spacesegment / tracksegment ) *( "&" (
timesegment / spacesegment / tracksegment )</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> New proposal is:</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> mediasegment =
namesegment / axissegment / extensionsegment</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> extensionsegment =
extensionprefix '=' extensionparam</p>
<p class='phone'>thanks silvia</p>
<p class='phone'>A specification of the parsing algorithm to
extract these from an actual URI can be found in D.1 Processing
name-value components and D.2 Processing name-value lists. Note
that the URI works on octet strings, but the parsed name-value
pairs are unicode strings, since percent-encoding is resolved.
Percent-decoding of non-(delims/sub-delims) may happen anytime,
so we consider it is done for the sake of readability of the
grammar. The following definitions</p>
<p class='phone'>From the section 4.2, last paragraph, <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#url-serialization">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#url-serialization</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I tend to agree with
Jack</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> I thought that we were
happy to have the grammar+text, and other people would work on
an algorithm</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> the ISSUE-19 mentions 3
things<br />
... be rigid on the grammar to flag errors for validator ...
this is what the grammar is used for<br />
... allow graceful extensibility ... this is dealt with the
proposal change in the production rules<br />
... match what most scripting languages do currently ... no
evidence that what we have made go agains this<br />
... so I don't see why ISSUE-19 is not resolved</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> New proposal
is:</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> mediasegment =
namesegment / axissegment / extensionsegment</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> extensionsegment =
extensionprefix '=' extensionparam</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> + prose to state
that a media segment cannot be only an extension segment</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> + warning to say that
it should not conflict with an existing axis</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTIOn-189?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-189 --
Raphaël Troncy to put the top-level production rules back into
the document (in section 4.3.5 or 4.1) -- due 2010-10-06 --
OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/189">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/189</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Proposal: vote for
changing the top level production rules into this proposal</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> +0</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Raphael: I invite
everybody to vote</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> -0</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>davy</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> Provisory results:
2 for, 2 abstain, 0 against</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>raphael</cite>> ... I will wait for
the votes of Silvia and Philip before resolving</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> what are you
missing?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Philip:</cite> it is not clear that
utf-8 decoding happen on both names and values</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> all the values and names
that are not explicitly said utf-8 strings are ASCII so utf-8
compatible<br />
... we might need to add this for extensionprefix and
extensionparam</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> yes, I think it
needs to be added to extensionsprefix and extensionparam -
though it could be noted generally</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Jack:</cite> I would like to have the 2
votes and adjourned</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Proposal:</cite> vote for changing the
top level production rules and include the extensionsegment for
enabling extensibility</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> -</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>davy</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> ~0</p>
<p class='phone'>+1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> can we come up with
a meta production rule on fragments, something like
mediafragment = [name = value]*</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> and then associate
it to that?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: no
extensionsegment to be added in the spec</strong></p>
<p class='phone'>close ACTION-189</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-189 Put the
top-level production rules back into the document (in section
4.3.5 or 4.1) closed</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> we need to improve
that part of the spec</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Results:</cite> 4 against, 1 for, 1
abstain</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> rejecting the
solution doesn't mean that the topic is solved</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Proposal:</cite> vote +1 if you want to
modify the grammar in order to allow extensibility on units and
values we don't currently understand, and -1 if you don't want
such a grammar change</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Results:</cite> 5 against, 1 abstain</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> sorry :)</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: we just
ignore values and units we do not understand</strong></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Proposal:</cite> vote +1 of you want the
default behavior of #xywh=10,10,10,10 be cropping when rendered
and -1 if you don't want</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>davy</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'>0</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> =0</p>
<p class='phone'>4 for, 2 abstain</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Proposal:</cite> vote +1 of you want the
only behavior of #xywh=10,10,10,10 be cropping when rendered
and -1 if you don't want</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>jackjansen</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>davy</cite>> -1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'>+1</p>
<p class='phone'><strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: The
default and only behavior of #xywh=10,10,10,10 is cropping when
rendered</strong></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> you miss the
important part in that resolution: "when rendered"</p><a name=
"action03" id="action03"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to edit section 7.1 for taking
into account the cropping resolution [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-198
- Edit section 7.1 for taking into account the cropping
resolution [on Raphaël Troncy - due 2010-11-09].</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> My suggestion for
ISSUE-19 is still <<a href=
"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Aug/0005.html%3E">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Aug/0005.html></a>
and what would necessarily follow.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> foolip, that is the
meta rule I tried to suggest above</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> Yves, do you think
the production rule can be changed accordingly?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> silvia, indeed</p>
<p class='phone'>Yves thinks that this resolve nothing</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> you can then make
name and value utf8string</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> 'npt' is ascii so
utf8, saying that it's just an utf-8 encoded string doesn't add
anything, it in fact removes that fact that it's 'npt'</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Of course it's not
the whole solution, it's step 1.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> yeah, you continue
with what is there, just as a type of namevalue</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> the algorithm should
say that 1/ cut at &, then name=value, 3/ it's utf-8, 4/ if
npt do this...</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> but that is orthogonal
to having the grammar saying what are the valid values</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> With this grammar,
there's no need for the first algorithm in section D.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I guess we have two
diverging views here: the grammar is a production rule and the
algo in section D is a dissecting approach</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I heard.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> But, I think it
would be more fruitful to actually see what the alternative
is.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I will talk with Erik
offline, and push for the status quo as the spec is written
today and go with the risk of having a formal objection at some
point</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> foolip we can't have
grammar = "name = value" , then "name = 'npt' | 'track'" and
values ' npttime | utf8string' , so the grammar can't start
with a generic name = value</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> however, a parsing
algorithm might perfectly well say that</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> those are different
things</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Yves, of course, the
grammars for each dimension operate on the *result* of
splitting name-value pairs, it's not in one layer of
syntax.</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> the grammar can
operate on the splitting of '&' as otherwise
<nptname> = <trackvalue> would be ok</p>
<p class='phone'>[meeting adjourned]</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to address
comments from the Media Annotations WG and draft a reply
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to also
add in the intro of Section 5 a paragraph explaining the
optimistic processing of fragments (using ranges in seconds)
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to edit
section 7.1 for taking into account the cropping resolution
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
<br />
[End of minutes]<br />
<hr />
<address>
Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
"http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
$Date: 2010/11/02 12:05:09 $
</address>
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<h2>Scribe.perl diagnostic output</h2>[Delete this section
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<pre>
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20
Check for newer version at <a href=
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/: hould/: should/
Succeeded: s/smantic/semantic/
Succeeded: s/exactly Sylvia!/oups, no I don't understand what you mean?/
Succeeded: s/Larry/what we need to do/
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WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/ng
Succeeded: s/Silvia/Raphael: Silvia,/
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Succeeded: s/RESOLUTION: The default and only behavior of #xywh=10,10,10,10 is cropping/RESOLUTION: The default and only behavior of #xywh=10,10,10,10 is cropping when rendered/
Found Scribe: raphael
Inferring ScribeNick: raphael
Found ScribeNick: raphael
Found ScribeNick: davy
Found ScribeNick: raphael
ScribeNicks: raphael, davy
WARNING: Dash separator lines found. If you intended them to mark
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For example:
<Philippe> ---
<Philippe> Review of Action Items
Present: Davy Raphael Dave_Singer Yves Jack Silvia Philip
Found Date: 02 Nov 2010
Guessing minutes URL: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html</a>
People with action items: troncy
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