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  <title>Social Web XG Meeting -- 02 Sep 2009</title>
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  <h1>Social Web XG Meeting</h1>

  <h2>02 Sep 2009</h2>

  <p><a href=
  'http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/weekly-agenda.html'>Agenda</a></p>

  <p>See also: <a href="http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-irc">IRC
  log</a></p>

  <h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

  <div class="intro">
    <dl>
      <dt>Present</dt>

      <dd>+95177aaaa, rreck, melvster, tinkster, pchampin, DKA,
      +1.314.683.aabb, bblfish, caribou, AlexPassant, hhalpin,
      Adam, AndreaP</dd>

      <dt>Regrets</dt>

      <dt>Chair</dt>

      <dd>hhalpin</dd>

      <dt>Scribe</dt>

      <dd>Toby</dd>
    </dl>
  </div>

  <h2>Contents</h2>

  <ul>
    <li>
      <a href="#agenda">Topics</a>

      <ol>
        <li><a href="#item01">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
        2009-09-02T13:00-15:00Z</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item02">General Organization and Task
        Forces</a></li>

        <li><a href="#item03">User stories</a></li>
      </ol>
    </li>

    <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
  </ul>
  <hr />

  <div class="meeting">
    <p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>

    <p class='phone'>&nbsp;</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; hi folks</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; i might be irc only
    today i'm afraid (drupalcon multitasking)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; hhalpin did you send
    out minutes to approve?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; low voter turnout</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; looks like the past
    minutes are not posted yet?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; it is :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; looks like the
    webpage links to minutes are wrong, many link to jul 22</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; the last minutes I
    recieved are <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/08/19-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; and the link
sZ    works</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='phone'>links to agenda, etc should be OK here -
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Telecons">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/Telecons</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Last meeting
    minutes are linked from agenda</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/07/29-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; you mean victim</p>

    <p class='phone'>I don't mind if nobody else wants to.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 tinkster</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; ScribeNick:
    tinkster</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Scribe: Toby</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i saw dan perform
    some incantation</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Let's kick off. First item
    on our agenda is (as usual) to review last week's minutes.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; hi</p>

    <p class='phone'><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; didn't we do
    webfinger last week?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 approve
    minutes</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ie. <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#item05">http://www.w3.org/2009/08/26-swxg-minutes.html#item05</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; yes, I understood
    sparql webfinger right after the end of the conf</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> Any objections to
    approving last week's minutes?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 meet again</p>

    <h3 id="item01">Convene SWXG WG meeting of
    2009-09-02T13:00-15:00Z</h3>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> Moving swiftly on:
    general organisations. Still not completed my action on
    OSLO/geolocation</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results">http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> Focus today on discussing
    use cases and results of poll. Move onto that?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> that sounds fine.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results">http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results</a></p>

    <h3 id="item02">General Organization and Task Forces</h3>

    <h3 id="item03">User stories</h3>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results">http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> Most productive to
    continue from last meeting, walking through use cases.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results?view=compact">
    http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results?view=compact</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> Most use cases have a
    champion. Some can clearly be dropped - bidirectional; drag and
    drop; etc. Some have almost unanimous support. Some more
    mixed.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> CRUD is on a much lower
    level than the others; can't really be argued against.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> Last time we got up to
    "Adding new features to Social Networks" case.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results#xq6">http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/43434/USECASES/results#xq6</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Developers should
    be able to expose existing data in new and interesting ways.
    But at the same time, people should be made aware of how their
    data is being used, and updated when this changes</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> To me this is talking
    mostly about widgets.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Maybe we should
    separate those out</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> There's widgets as in
    browser-widgets, but also those that live on the page, and
    APIs, etc. This encompasses both of those aspects.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Harry:</cite> should separate out?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yuk</cite>&gt; ??P36 is me</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Not so sure they should be
    separate. They seem related.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; The issue with this
    usecase is needs a champion</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think there should
    be an opt in policy about newly added functionality</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; beuler</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; I'll champion this
    one if no one wants to</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Anyone want to champion
    it?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> yay for melvster
    championing.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; To find the
    original source of a meme or piece of information.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Tracking of sources use
    case. We want to find the original source of the
    information.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tinkster:</cite> am happy to champion
    this use case.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i just disagree with
    christine</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Multiple identities /
    anonymous identities - merge?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; To provide
    information without being the attributed source or “whistle
    blower”.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Anonymous
    information usecase</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Provenance is
    effectivelzy blocked or unknown, i.e. anonymous, or anonymous
    identity.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> this could also be
    considered to be merged with source tracking / provenance.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; yeah provenance is an
    anonymous node</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> curious to understand the
    argument against.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i want to share it,
    just not have it attributed to me</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> there could be a set of
    people you are comfortable with sharing information; other
    people not so much; so have two identities - a real one and a
    pseudononymous one.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; anonymous could
    also be wikileaks-style, i.e. truly anonymous</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Not sure this answers the
    whistleblower use case completely anonymously.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; this can be
    accomplished technically via messages sent out over mixminion
    for example</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; yeah someone on my
    street put up a sign saying the water wasnt safe. im sure it
    made him a target</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Whistleblower use case more
    interesting if we look at it from a gov't agency point of
    view.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; what is the problem
    with having identifiers for people with no info linked to that
    id?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; then you get id,
    and anonymity</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; +1 bblfish</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> if rreck wants to
    champion it, we should keep it around, but note its links to
    related use cases.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; +1 bblfish</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I think if Ronald
    wants to champion if Ronald making sure its suitable,
    especially if we can track back to merging source...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> From a social net point
    of view, what does this encompass? How does it relate to e.g.
    Webcams.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i want to protect my
    friends from something, but i dont want it tracked to me</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> there exists technical
    infrastructure that can provide pretty good anonymity.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think its null
    provenance</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; ill talk to oshani
    offline</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> should champions be
    rewriting use cases, cleaning up, fleshing out?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> yes/</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; +1</p><a name=
    "action01" id="action01"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> rreck to flesh out anonymous usecase
    connecting to multiple identies and null provenance [recorded
    in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-71
    - Flesh out anonymous usecase connecting to multiple identies
    and null provenance [on Ronald Reck - due 2009-09-09].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Removing Data or
    Changing Data permission" Use-case</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> next use case is
    removing data / changing permissions use case. Most people not
    in favour of keeping. Perhaps use case is too abstract?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; there really is not
    much text at <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Removing_Data_or_Changing_Data_permission">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Removing_Data_or_Changing_Data_permission</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> relates to the more
    concrete 10 year and takedown cases.<br />
    ... Merge these three use cases?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Document Takedowns
    Propagators Use-case</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; are all of them really
    related to the life cycle management of data?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Seems sensible to me.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think all this case
    could be solved with obligatory metadata stating time to
    life</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> 10 year use case had a
    lot of support, no champion. Would oshani like to incorporate
    this into document takedown?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> yes, I can do that.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> 10 years is just a
    time-related document takedown.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> if you do everything by
    reference (rather than by copying) then you only need to take
    down the original.</p><a name="action02" id="action02"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Oshani to merge document takedown with
    time-related takedown "forget this in ten years" and more
    general concept of data removal. [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-72
    - Merge document takedown with time-related takedown "forget
    this in ten years" and more general concept of data removal.
    [on Oshani Seneviratne - due 2009-09-09].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> example is a photo that I've
    taken, which includes bblfish's face, and bblfish annotates it.
    Someone else in the photo asked DKA to take down the
    photo.<br />
    ... DKA should be able to remove photo. What happens to
    annotation? What is bblfish's right to the image vs DKA's
    right?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; DKA's example
    happened to me</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> it's complicated -
    that's true.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Last Will"
    usecase</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> last will and testament
    use case.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; time to life for
    information</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; obligatory
    metadata</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> very popular, but
    lacking a champion.<br />
    ... perhaps should be merged with takedowns? but it's a very
    special case.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i will champion that
    but solve it with obligatory metadata</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; everybody's gonna...
    :-)</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> this is something we'll all
    end up facing!</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +q</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> worth keeping on its own.
    volunteer champion?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Ron?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> this could be solved by
    including a time-to-live (TTL) for every piece of content.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; is an option on
    time-to-life?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; yes, but it is
    weird. I think that removing information is problematic.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>everyone:</cite> "if you know the exact
    time of your death".</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> copyright is based on
    death date.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yuk</cite>&gt; it also happens that
    one's parents/friends want to see his/her history</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tinkster:</cite> it's based on the
    author's death date, but calculated *after* death.
    (currently)</p>

    <p class='phone'>Ah, so MacTed above is rreck. (Note to
    editor!)</p>

    <p class='phone'>(Or maybe not?)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Hmmm...it seems
    like what we need to do next is move to group permissions</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; is some of that
    regarding permissions of access versus time of life?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>MacTed:</cite> TTL could be fragmented
    by different groups.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; that is an awesome
    point, its much more complicated than i had appreciated</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; unix like
    permissions?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Death use case needs a
    champion, even if nobody wants to be the "champion of
    death".<br />
    ... I'd be happy to take it on myself.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; one of my FB passed,
    and i wondered what will happen to his page</p><a name=
    "action03" id="action03"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> DKA to take on "Last Will and
    Testament Usecase", referencing it as both a legal issue and
    with regards document takedown [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-73
    - Take on "Last Will and Testament Usecase", referencing it as
    both a legal issue and with regards document takedown [on
    Daniel Appelquist - due 2009-09-09].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> What happens right now on
    social networks when people die? What happens if someone is
    believed dead, their account deleted, and it turns out they're
    alive?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (de-lurking)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; mostly someone finds
    their username/password, and assumes ownership of the account
    ...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tinkster:</cite> there exist facebook
    memorial pages (I'm told)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; i'd like to spend
    some time chasing up this issue, seems a useful kind of thing
    for w3c to investigate</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; if that doesn't
    happen, most accounts I've known have just sat there untouched
    (sometimes years) like any other inactive</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> multiple identities use
    case. champion bblfish?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Multiple
    Identities" Use-case</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yuk</cite>&gt; Social network for the
    dead Respectance crosses the ocean <a href=
    "http://thenextweb.com/2008/10/03/social-network-for-the-death-respectance-crosses-the-ocean/">
    http://thenextweb.com/2008/10/03/social-network-for-the-death-respectance-crosses-the-ocean/</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Sort of built from
    multiple identities over multiple networks to metadata about
    the management of data over multiple networks to access
    control.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Maybe this could be the
    starting point for other use cases.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; demerits for me, I
    found no window to review/restructure :-(</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> e.g. identities on
    mutiple networks.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> Multiple identities
    seems like a good idea - easy to do.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; acceptable use is a
    problem, i dont think FB let's you do it</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Could you maybe merge
    this with no-password use case?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Using a web
    service should not involve password or account name creation"
    Use-case</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; but these seem
    kinda of technically separate</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; so keep them
    separate?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; tons of cross
    talk</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> the user not needing to
    have a password doesn't mean they can't identify themselves.
    It's a question of ease-of-use. A bit technical.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; no</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; think its henrys
    line</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> repeated setting up of
    accounts is unnecessary and tedious.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; are we losing
    bblfish?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> data portability
    problem?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> so bblfish wants to keep
    multiple identities and passwordless use cases separate?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> yes. latter is about
    ease of use.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; sounds like
    OpenID?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; sorry have to
    leave, see you.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; tough to hear
    agreed</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; another use case
    that this makes me think of is: Identifiers on SN should not be
    resold to other people, as this would mess up the web of
    relations on the web. Eg: people saying they are firends of
    <a href=
    "http://facebook.org/joe#me">http://facebook.org/joe#me</a> and
    then this being reassinged to Joe BadGuy</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> problem with zakim<br />
    ... let's move on; for now Henry as champion for multiple
    identities.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; yes better</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; yes, the point is
    that the DataPortability group have mentioned that loggin in to
    every web site is a big problem</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; This is solved by
    OpenId, Passport, foaf+ssl</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> next use cases are all
    about group access control.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; the data
    portability video: <a href=
    "http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/data_portability_the_video">
    http://blogs.sun.com/bblfish/entry/data_portability_the_video</a></p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> first is more abstract;
    second is the concrete example of family-access for a
    resource.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; agreed kinship is
    cultural</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Most comments suggest
    merging these.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Distributed Group
    Access Control" Use-case</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; hm.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> who would agree on what a
    family is? link identity to genome?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> who will champion
    this/these use cases?</p><a name="action04" id="action04"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> bblfish to merge Family and Group
    access usecases [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-74
    - Merge Family and Group access usecases [on Henry Story - due
    2009-09-09].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> yes, I'm championing
    this. Don't need to link in genome (scribe notes that FOAF does
    have an appropriate property) - just need to link to your
    family.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Intransitivity of
    Policies Applied to Social Network Data" Use-cas</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; but family markedness
    is cultural</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> intransitivity use
    case.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; some cultures mark
    siblings but not gender</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (tinkster - new foaf
    properties can be had for as little as 5 euros... send me mail
    :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Current social
    networking platforms implement very rudimentary data usage
    policies. These mostly focuses on the immediate individuals
    concerned and do not have much consideration about the data
    transfer beyond them. Policy conflicts are also not properly
    handled. If the policies applied to social networking data are
    made to be transitive, we can make sure tha</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> if your data moves from
    one SN to another, your privacy policy can accompany it.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> facebook quizzes - I'm
    not just giving out my own data, but my friends' data. This is
    a problem.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; yeah that is a
    problem</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (ah, i read
    "doesn't" :)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; (yeah, dnachecksum
    started as a joke, but i think a few folk would like a real
    one!)</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yuk</cite>&gt; can the friends choose
    not to have their data being taken from one website to
    another?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> oshani, could you find a
    link to quizzes example?</p><a name="action05" id=
    "action05"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> oshani to flesh out "Intransitivity of
    Policies Applied to Social Network Data" [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action05</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-75
    - Flesh out "Intransitivity of Policies Applied to Social
    Network Data" [on Oshani Seneviratne - due 2009-09-09].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> bidirectional use case -
    everyone agreed to drop it. too vague?</p><a name="action06"
    id="action06"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to drop bidirectional use case
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action06</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-76
    - Drop bidirectional use case [on Harry Halpin - due
    2009-09-09].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; peer pressure</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> virtual private
    organisation use case - create a temporary internal (or
    cross-organisation) network.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Virtual Private
    Organization" Use-case</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; No champion</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> make sure it doesn't
    leak data.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I thought it came
    from joaquin...</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Isn't this the corporate SN
    use case?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> related to that
    heavily.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; I suppose this is
    also very similar to "Distributed Group Access Control"</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; it is very similar
    to distributed group access contol.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Adam:</cite> I can champion this use
    case. Can look at this two ways - internally, people could
    create their own groups, which they could make private (even
    within the company) or not.<br />
    ... Or is this more complicated.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> It's pretty bare-bones right
    now. It seems to point more to organically-growing
    networks.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>pchampin</cite>&gt; sorry, I have to
    leave</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; groove does what you
    are describing</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; take care
    pchampin!</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>Adam:</cite> if you were to create one
    of these private virtual organisations, people would need to
    agree to its terms. Right now, our IT dept can create private
    organisations like this, and use the group to post some
    specific public content too.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; maybe add links to
    Distributed Access control?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> Can you add this as a
    sub-usecase?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tinkster:</cite> if what Adam describes
    could also take in people and departments at other
    organisations too.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> related to distributed
    access control, which would be an enabling technology for
    it.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>DKA:</cite> we're at the end of our
    slot.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; we did pretty well
    getting through them</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; bye DKA</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> three more use cases to
    go through. Should we go through them now?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; so keep geo is
    clear</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; +1 for talking
    about these now</p>

    <p class='phone'>+1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>oshani</cite>&gt; +1</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; +1</p><a name=
    "action07" id="action07"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Adam to work on fleshing on "Virtual
    Private Organisation Use Case" reference distributed data
    access control policy [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action07</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-77
    - Work on fleshing on "Virtual Private Organisation Use Case"
    reference distributed data access control policy [on Adam Boyet
    - due 2009-09-09].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; did we doo the Too
    Many Channels?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> geo use case. Inferences
    on location-based contextual data. We should have privacy
    controls on this, but should be able to share it if we want.
    Relates to portability and access control.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> happy to champion this.
    can't see anything to merge with.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "Too many channels"
    can be move across different channels</p><a name="action08" id=
    "action08"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to drop "too many channels"
    [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action08">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action08</a>]</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> "too many channels" use
    case - allow data to move across between different SNs. Pretty
    much covered by other portability and access use cases. We
    should drop.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-78
    - Drop "too many channels" [on Harry Halpin - due
    2009-09-09].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Data protection use
    case. This is not easy.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>oshani</cite>&gt; hhalpin, nope, I am
    not a champion for that</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> the question is very
    interesting, but I don't know what the answer is.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Alice is not a
    member of a given walled-garden social network and Bob tags her
    in an image from an event they were both at. Given that Alice
    finds out about this image, through word of mouth or by
    whatever means, should she be able to ask for her depiction to
    be removed? If she somehow manages to confirm that indeed it
    was a picture of her, should she be abl</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> similar to document
    takedown perhaps, but also need to look at legal
    requirements.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>oshani</cite>&gt; I think I am</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; data protection to me
    infers controlled access</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; controlled
    access</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Could be kept
    separate there...</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; is this use case more
    about Alice's right to have the image removed?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; Could be an intro
    to a number of use cases</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> this is different fron
    document take down in that it's initiated by an outsider.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> perhaps it needs a bit
    of rephrasing.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> I'll think about
    that.</p><a name="action09" id="action09"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> bblfish to relabel data protection use
    case to be about controlled access and takedown to data "about"
    you [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action09">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action09</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-79
    - Relabel data protection use case to be about controlled
    access and takedown to data "about" you [on Henry Story - due
    2009-09-09].</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 yeah</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; we have a few extra
    use cases that were added</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> I think we've managed to
    drop three use cases and merge about four.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; what about the shill
    one? can we keep it</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> Next week after a bit
    more boiling down, we can maybe freeze the use cases and start
    drafting a full document.<br />
    ... Document structure maybe: identity, metadata, access?</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; do you know who
    added that one?</p>

    <p class='phone'>I think I might have added one - commercial
    incentives for social networks to open their data.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Social_Web_for_Business_Intelligence">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Social_Web_for_Business_Intelligence</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; yeah, toby did and
    there was one other as well</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; this one
    perhaps?</p>

    <p class='phone'>There was bblfish's plastic toy one too.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>oshani</cite>&gt; <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Current_Location_as_a_Direction">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Current_Location_as_a_Direction</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; hhalpin: i added
    shill</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; i'm happy to champion
    the Social Web for Business Intellegence</p>

    <p class='phone'>Not realy.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; was this one new
    too <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Shills_Posting_False_Information_to_Dilute_the_Truth">
    http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories#Shills_Posting_False_Information_to_Dilute_the_Truth</a></p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; OK.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; oshani and
    henry</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>tinkster:</cite> I don't have any
    special interest in the use case I've recently posted - just
    wrote it up as I'd been actioned. Someone else can
    champion.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; yes, I can do
    that.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> bblfish and oshani to
    edit full use case document?</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>oshani:</cite> happy to help.</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>bblfish:</cite> not edited a w3c doc
    before.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; don't think I did
    edit a doc</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; apart from wiki</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> I'll show you the
    process next week. Draft it on Wiki; cut out HTML and put it on
    CVS; then edit it from there.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; ok</p><a name=
    "action10" id="action10"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> Explain to henry and oshani doc
    editing process for usecases [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action10">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action10</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't
    find user - Explain</p><a name="action11" id="action11"></a>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt;
    <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin explain to henry and oshani
    doc editing process for usecases [recorded in <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action11">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action11</a>]</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-80
    - Explain to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases
    [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-09-09].</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> that's all folks.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Meeting
    adjourned</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; bubye</p>

    <p class='phone'><cite>hhalpin:</cite> sorry for
    overrunning.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>bblfish</cite>&gt; ok by</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i wont be here next
    week.</p>

    <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; trackbot, end
    meeting</p>
  </div>

  <h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
  Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Adam to work on
  fleshing on "Virtual Private Organisation Use Case" reference
  distributed data access control policy [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action07">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action07</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> bblfish to merge
  Family and Group access usecases [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> bblfish to
  relabel data protection use case to be about controlled access
  and takedown to data "about" you [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action09">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action09</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> DKA to take on
  "Last Will and Testament Usecase", referencing it as both a legal
  issue and with regards document takedown [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin explain
  to henry and oshani doc editing process for usecases [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action11">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action11</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to drop
  "too many channels" [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action08">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action08</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to drop
  bidirectional use case [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action06">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action06</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> oshani to flesh
  out "Intransitivity of Policies Applied to Social Network Data"
  [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action05">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action05</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Oshani to merge
  document takedown with time-related takedown "forget this in ten
  years" and more general concept of data removal. [recorded in
  <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />

  <strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> rreck to flesh
  out anonymous usecase connecting to multiple identies and null
  provenance [recorded in <a href=
  "http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2009/09/02-swxg-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />

  &nbsp;<br />
  [End of minutes]<br />
  <hr />

  <address>
    Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
    scribe.perl</a> version 1.135 (<a href=
    "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/">CVS log</a>)<br />
    $Date: 2009/09/09 09:25:22 $
  </address>

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