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  <title>SWXG Minutes -- 07 Jul 2009</title>
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<h1>SWXG Minutes</h1>
<h2>07 Jul 2009</h2>


<h2><a name="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>

<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd></dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dd>Hakan, PeterF, bblfish</dd>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>DKA and hhalpin</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>Carine</dd>

</dl>
</div>

<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
  <li><a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
	<ol>
	<li><a href="#item01">Convene, Approval of last week's minutes</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">General Organization - Actions</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">User Stories</a></li>

<li><a href="#item04">Invited Guest Invitations</a></li>
<li><a href="#item05">Privacy Jungle</a></li>

	</ol>
  </li>
  <li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr>
<div class="meeting">

<p class='phone'>


</p>

<p class='phone'>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; zakim mute me
</p>

</p>

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; Scribe: Carine
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; scribenick: caribou
</p>

<h3 id="item01">Convene, Approval of last week's minutes</h3>
<p class='irc'>

&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: to approve SWXG WG Weekly -- 24 June 2009 as a true record
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: approved SWXG WG Weekly -- 24 June 2009 as a true record
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; PROPOSED: to meet again Wed, 8th July
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Minutes are here BTW - <a href="http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2009/06/24-swxg-minutes.html</a>

</p>

<h3 id="item02">General Organization - Actions</h3>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; RESOLVED: to meet again Wed, 8th of July
</p>

<a name="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; <strong>ACTION:</strong> bblfish and hhalpin to write up kaliya's talk for future report

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-47 - And hhalpin to write up kaliya's talk for future report [on Henry Story - due 2009-07-08].
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; <strong>[PENDING]</strong>
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> Do we endorse the Identity Commons Purpose and Principles?

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href="http://wiki.idcommons.net/Purpose_And_Principles">http://wiki.idcommons.net/Purpose_And_Principles</a>
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; +1 sounds good (as principles)
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>AndreaP</cite>&gt; +1 from me too

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; The only issue is that we're not a long-standing group.
</p>

<p class='phone'>
Self-organization?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>hhalpin:</cite> I don't know what that means <br>
... I mostly agree with the principles
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The SWXG supports and endorses the Identity Commons purposes and principles; we share these principles as part of the core values of our effort.
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>hhalpin:</cite> but we should be clear that we do have a charter

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; perhaps we could feed back to the ID commons
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>AndreaP</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>MacTed</cite>&gt; +1

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mattroweshow</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>FabGandon</cite>&gt; +1

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; RESOLUTION: The SWXG supports and endorses the Identity Commons purposes and principles; we share these principles as part of the core values of our effort.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: The SWXG supports and endorses the Identity Commons purposes and principles; we share these principles as part of the core values of our effort</strong>

</p>

<a name="action02"></a>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to send e-mail to id commons saying we endorse their principles, have a link to us
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-48 - Send e-mail to id commons saying we endorse their principles, have a link to us [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-07-08].
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <a href="http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/RequirementsAndUseCases">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/RequirementsAndUseCases</a>
</p>

<a name="action03"></a>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[DONE]</strong> hhalpin to create draft use-case document in W3C cvs
</p>

<a name="action04"></a>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[CONTINUES]</strong> danbri follow up re whether to use survey tool at w3c or elsewhere
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; It's just a form without content, but it does look pretty and shows you can edit a full W3C spec using a wiki.

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>AndreaP</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; yes, Harry, i think that was the spirit/intent

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; The audience of the survey is non-W3C member.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; or surveying businesses which are NOT currently part of W3C
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> if we want to do survey, it makes sense to use the W3C tool

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; It's a survey of *non*-members
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> but beyond the WG, another tool would be easier
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; yes, makes sense

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; yes, makes sense to me.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I use surey gizmo
</p>

<p class='phone'>
WBS has capability for public questionnaires, AFAIK
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; surveygizmo.com
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; are we intending to send these surveys to end users or to service providers ?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Christine:</cite> I use surveygizmo, it's free, lots of reporting capabilities

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; sounds like an endorsement to me
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Christine:</cite> very flexible
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Another one Techcrunch seems to be using:  Polldaddy.com

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Since Christine is probably going to taking the lead on the survey, then I'd say survey gizmo is right.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; ah hah!
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; :)

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We'll use internal WBS tool for internal W3C polls, we'll use some tbd external system (e.g. surveymonkey, surveygizmo) to do external surveys.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Sounds good to me.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>AndreaP</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; +1

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; +1

</p>

<p class='phone'>
<strong class='resolution'>RESOLUTION: We'll use internal WBS tool for internal W3C polls, we'll use some tbd external system (e.g. surveymonkey, surveygizmo) to do external surveys.</strong>
</p>

<h3 id="item03">User Stories</h3>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i wish user stories were called use cases
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; tpa?

</p>

<a name="action05"></a>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; <strong>ACTION:</strong> <strong>[DONE]</strong> tpa to W3C-style "edit" user stories
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; can someone past the URI to the wiki page with user stories?

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; paste!
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Tim:</cite> not much to say, first round of editing done
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; <a href="http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/wiki/UserStories</a>

</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Tim:</cite> transformed in templates, people should fill in blanks <br>
... we may allow more time for adding more stories
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i have a couple i could add
</p>

<p class='irc'>

&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I think it needs to be expanded
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> it seems that we need more material
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; what about having use cases be an item in the survey?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; Oshani and I came up with some we think are interesting
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; i am happy to go through / edit the Privacy and Context  subsection, we will see if have any use cases in Garlik with we use to protect our customers privacy
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; question on survey: rank these use cases? are there any use cases missing?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; what about stories of the past?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> there are stories about the present and about the future
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>Tim</cite>&gt; I like the idea of prioritization - this could be an internal survey at first.

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; there are good stories around Jennifer Rigley and context
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; in the past
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; +1 on noticing "future" vs "past" issue

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; yes, prioritization
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; can we just add metadata describing the type of use case?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; +1

</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> maybe we want to let more user stories be added before prioritization
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; I still have one user story I need to add.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; close ACTION-19

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; ACTION-19 Document developer stories on wiki. closed
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; maybe generate more cases first before prioritization.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I like adding some metadata to the general template (suggestion by ron)

</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> anybody who wants to add a story can take an action
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; we could add metadata to the stories
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; ACTION-42?

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; ACTION-42 -- Toby Inkster to document danbri's microblogging provenance question as a user story. -- due 2009-06-24 -- OPEN
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; <a href="http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/42">http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/socialweb/track/actions/42</a>
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; Ill take an action to add a usecase

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; unless Oshani  wants it
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Tim:</cite> talk in a week or two when we have more stories
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; can we add to the template an element about the user's device/access network? or do we assume that all are PC + mobile access?

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; cperey, good point
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; cperey, basically we don't have any stories that hinge upon differences in access
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; but would it not be valuable for there to be such differences?

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i dont know how to action on myself
</p>

<a name="action06"></a>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tpa</cite>&gt; <strong>ACTION:</strong> tpa to look for similar use cases list to expand ours
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't find user - tpa
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Christine:</cite> In the template, can we note if it is assumed that the service is accessed by PC or mobile
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> "is it a use case primarily in mobile?"
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; should we define what is meant by mobile vs PC?, like the criteria cperey just mentioned
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> I'd not categorize as PC vs. Mobile
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; ok, then let's just add metadata. yeah pre-conditions

</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> mobile environnement vs. "desk"
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; perhaps could be scenario with a moblie part on it
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Christine:</cite> "this user is mobile"

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 cperey
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Christine:</cite> before we edit stories, add it to the template
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> it's more about which data is available <br>

... e.g. location
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; but would bandwidth be the "quality of the data"?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; who was speaking ?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Maybe that should be the beginning of a user story - i.e. why don't we have the same information available whether mobile or otherwise?

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; quality of data seems ambiguous to me?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> conditions in which the network is accessed
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think the possible preconditions might be enumerated

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; ff 3.5 gives geolocation
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; hehe
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; context could be "I'm in  call"

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; that's probably something that phone (device) knows but a PC does not
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> it's becoming an increasingly fuzzy distinction
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; you can be on a call on skype your PC could know that

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; but isn't it our responsiblity to clarify its defnition?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> we should have something in the template
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; haha!

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; who is speaking?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; :)
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; ?

</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> I agree, browsers everywhere, not only on PC
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; but would bandwidth be the "quality of the data"?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; yes, I agree

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; can we please get the name of speaker?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> differences in data transmission (bandwidth, security...)
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I would like to work/collaborate on that

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; with someone else
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; bandwidth is variable
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I would like to collaborate on additional definition on template for use cases

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; ?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; my phone switches between networks everywhere i go thereby giving me different bandwidth all the time
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; to clarify use case mobile/fixed

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Notice that we're already 30 minutes in....
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; Ronald Reck
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; im muted

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I will be happy to work with Ron on this. Misha spoke?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; me ?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; no i wasn't speaking

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; the person sounded germna
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; german to me
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; ok, thanks for clarifcation

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; ah!! thank you!
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I am happy to assist/collaborate but no actions for me
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; agreed

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; :-)
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I'm learning
</p>

<a name="action07"></a>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>scribe</cite>&gt; <strong>ACTION:</strong> Sören to propose addition to the template for user stories for conditions

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Sorry, couldn't find user - Sören
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; happy to leave them
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; danbri not on call, but on IRC.

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I can suggest some another speaker
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Danbri do you have someone from Opera to talk about widgets?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Eran Hammer-Lahav

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; OASIS XRDS-Simple
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Now called "XRD" IIRC.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; harry, can you please adjust your microphone/mouth piece?

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; better
</p>

<h3 id="item04">Invited Guest Invitations</h3>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; XRIs ?
</p>

<p class='irc'>

&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; LRDD Update (Resource Descriptor Discovery)
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; they are they used in OAuth endpoints
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; &lt;yawn&gt;..how relevant to SWXG?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; HTTP and HTML.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Link Headers and Link elements in HTML.
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>hhalpin:</cite> we need a standardised way to discover info about someone on the web

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; it is used in Oauth and in openid, as far as i am aware
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Mischa - what's your opinion of XRD-Simple implementations?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; I can report on this

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; XRDS is in OpenID 2, but not 1.x. XRD/XRDS-Simple is not.
</p>

<p class='phone'>
Kaliya?: XRDS is part of OpenID spec
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; agree 100%
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; excellent
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; some quick overview: <a href="http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2009/03/the-discovery-protocol-stack.html">http://www.hueniverse.com/hueniverse/2009/03/the-discovery-protocol-stack.html</a> and the internet draft: <a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hammer-discovery-03">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hammer-discovery-03</a>
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; privacy jungle +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; DKA, re opera people ... yes once we send a formal invite... should i just invite an agenda topic and invite them?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; ie. it's agreed in principle and definite interest

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; move ahead go Soren/Joseph
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; but they want to see exact topics before deciding who to send
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; and when

</p>

<a name="action08"></a>
<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to contact eran to talk, also about LRDD.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>trackbot</cite>&gt; Created ACTION-50 - Contact eran to talk, also about LRDD. [on Harry Halpin - due 2009-07-08].
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; danbri - I just thought Eran could explain hook up between LRDD and XRD/XRD-Simple
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> we need to articulate why openness is good for social network business
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; good for businesses +1 :)
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>danbri</cite>&gt; sure. am talking re opera action only
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Since he is already actively seeking comments on it.

</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> I'd like to take the resolution that we will work on that
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Oh, I thought opera action was based on w3c widgets/open social compatibility
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; yes

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I've posted to the mailing list
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>DKA:</cite> if we want to convince people of the relevance of the work and also bring industry people to the group
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Michael Hausenblas (DERI) is also pretty interested/informed on LRDD/XRD/etc.

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; it would be nice if there was work item which is focusing on why good for business
</p>

<h3 id="item05">Privacy Jungle</h3>
<p class='phone'>
<a href="http://preibusch.de/publications/social_networks/privacy_jungle_dataset.htm">http://preibusch.de/publications/social_networks/privacy_jungle_dataset.htm</a>
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; agree...

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; soren: if we look at alexa, it's unclear if it's social networking sites
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; blogging service is that a socialnetwork?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; soren: stripped it down to 45 sites, got rid of site not in English as we can't discover then.

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; i dont see why not, you have trackbacks
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I agree with this premise 100%
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> only sites where you can make friends on the site

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>Adam</cite>&gt; <a href="http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol13/issue1/boyd.ellison.html">http://jcmc.indiana.edu/vol13/issue1/boyd.ellison.html</a>
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; IMHO, the paper is very impressive
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; +1 rreck

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; social networking platforms= white label social networking servers
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; quick question - why exclude content-sharing sites like Flickr?
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>jsalvachua</cite>&gt; +1 rreck too

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; user counts unreliable
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> some sites that claim to be "leading" sites are not
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; good question hhalpin

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; I wonder if Joe and Soren are on the IRC
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; maybe not.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; it doesnt seem like they are

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i hadnt even thought of that
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Joseph: statistical data about social networks given to advertisers seems more reliable than data given in press releases and to general public.
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> categories for the sites: languages, metadata, data collected, privacy controls offered to users <br>

... key aspects of privacy policy of the sites
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; "advertise on us" links or sites put through "advertising networks"
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>ZZZ:</cite> how did you access this info? (number of users...)
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> fact sheets or surveys <br>

... we could have included flickr <br>
... their main use cases is vacation pictures to be shared with friends <br>
... you can consider a site to be a SN depending on how people use it <br>
... it's hard to draw a line
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; and there could be more user populations on any service
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> the research in privacy is not new, and the lock-in effect has existed before <br>

... e.g. Amazon <br>
... in SN it's worse because there are all your friends and they would not follow you if you change
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Hopefully you'd just lose your links to your friends - you wouldn't actually lose all your friends.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; agree with this definition
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; of lock-in effects of services
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> Users can't take data to another network <br>
... sites do not promote privacy as an argument on the front page
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; +1 on that this is a problem

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; +1 for sure
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>AndreaP</cite>&gt; +1
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; problem but the user education is not there

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think they are pandering to the lowest common denominator
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>oshani</cite>&gt; I think "privacy as an argument on the front page" will chase some users away
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> it's not that it is not mentioned at all. You can still dig up a privacy policy <br>

... they claim how good their practices are
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; i think Soren is speaking now
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> sites communicate on privacy depending on the targeted audience
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i think this means -&gt;privacy doesnt sell

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; :)
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; this was very useful stuff
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; I think we should keep going

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; but people can leave...
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; great question
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Mischa:</cite> did you study what happens when you delete info from the sites? <br>
... e.g. if data is really removed?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> most sites don't claim they will remove the data <br>
... some sites do it partially, but most sites don't make any claim
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; how does Joe conduct this research?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Mischa:</cite> EU regulations? govt regulations?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> experiment on photos, they are still there
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>DKA</cite>&gt; Chair: HHalpin
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> some sites outsource the photos hosting <br>

... to delivery networks <br>
... facebook uses akamai
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; No problem DKA
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> so if you delete the photo on Facebook, the photo might be available for 30 days after
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>rreck</cite>&gt; i concur 30 days is not reasonable
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> privacy policy says "it will be deleted after a reasonable period of time" <br>
... the UK data protection act and EU data protection directive lay out things <br>
... it is questionnable if 30 days would be ok
</p>

<p class='phone'>

<cite>Mischa:</cite> Do they tell if data will be sent to other countries for storage?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> No. The "content delivery network" is under their control, they have the master copy, but the rest is unknown <br>
... once a photo has been seen in the UK from the akamai, there's local caching <br>
... it's a huge grey area legally <br>
... the larger sites are the tip of the iceberg in privacy practices <br>
... the smaller sites often started with bad privacy

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; been interesting, very good work, we should build on this.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>mischat</cite>&gt; dito in orkut is massive in iran too
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; ++ to what Joe is saying about a broad view of what social networking should be defined. Great deal of diversity

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>cperey</cite>&gt; our responsibility is to have broad view
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Mischa:</cite> recent story about last.fm <br>

... are there different levels of privacy?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> problem with affiliate companies <br>
... law is less strict when it comes to transferring info to affiliated companies <br>
... it's difficult for the user to follow where the info is going
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>oshani</cite>&gt; another similar story: <a href="http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/26/1331218/Of-Catty-Rants-and-Copyrights?from=rss">http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/06/26/1331218/Of-Catty-Rants-and-Copyrights?from=rss</a>

</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> it's very hard to make a guess from their terms and conditions <br>
... never seen 'affiliates' defined anywhere
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>hhalpin:</cite> geographical diversity pb <br>
... from the W3C perspective, interest in i18n <br>

... in some of your metrics, balance in non-english sites?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> assessed the sites on accessibility, mobile OK, ... <br>
... low scores, disappointing news <br>
... we included non-english sites but difficult to assess privacy policies in foreign languages, and also vs. local culture
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>hhalpin:</cite> unclarity of privacy policy phrasing

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; harry: can we cluster privacy practices?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> it was hard to distinguish clusters
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; harry: due to privacy policy?

</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> it's hard to see prevalent practices
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> we might try to diff the privacy texts, to see the %age of wording reuse
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; And POWDER?

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; P3P hasn't taken off.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>FabGandon</cite>&gt; beleives Lorry Cranor did a lot on that subject indeed when working on P3P
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> P3P was designed to communicate privacy policies, but less than 10% of the sites implement P3P <br>

... and some are doing it wrong
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>harry:</cite> is it doable to present a human-readable privacy policy?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> several projects going this way
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>AndreaP</cite>&gt; POWDER might be good if you would like to state which are the privacy policies adopted by a given set of resources.

</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> it's worth investigating <br>
... also somewhere where W3C could step in
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Harry:</cite> I'm interested in links to these projects?
</p>

<cite>Soren:</cite> I will try to put something together
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; Perhaps a cut-down dialect of P3P in RDFa might increase update? I think danbri was looking at something like that.
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>harry:</cite> Can we use some of your results in the XG?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Soren:</cite> yes, publicly available
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; that was a pretty hacky list :)
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Mischa:</cite> .... list of SN
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; should blogging be under social networking?
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> we did look at some of the ones you have on your list
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; danbri, while you were gone I said: Perhaps a cut-down dialect of P3P in RDFa might increase update? I think danbri was looking at something like that.

</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; soren: youtube, blogger, take off
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> youtube not really a SN <br>
... friends' communication is limited
</p>

<p class='phone'>

<cite>harry:</cite> whatever has a friends list could be a SNS
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; soren: Gmail is pretty huge social network
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; mischa: gmail using facebook connect
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Mischa:</cite> there's a connect between facebook and gmail
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> 2 ideas in textual analysis of policies <br>
... identify reuse of boilerplate text <br>
... difficulty to read <br>
... it might also be interesting to identify relevant dimensions of a privacy policy <br>

... and see how they differ
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>melvster</cite>&gt; in the uk i believe they have to give you all the data they have on you, but you need to pay a small fee
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>Joseph:</cite> for some observations you need a real account
</p>

<p class='phone'>
<cite>harry:</cite> the study is very educational <br>

... interested in discussion on the mailing list
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>tinkster</cite>&gt; melvster, organisations have the right to charge a Â£10 fee for gathering, printing and sending your data, but many will waive that.
</p>

<p class='irc'>
&lt;<cite>hhalpin</cite>&gt; Call adjourned
</p>


</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></h2>

<!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> bblfish and hhalpin to write up kaliya's talk for future report <br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to contact eran to talk, also about LRDD. <br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to send e-mail to id commons saying we endorse their principles, have a link to us <br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Sören to propose addition to the template for user stories for conditions <br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> tpa to look for similar use cases list to expand ours <br />
&nbsp;<br />
<strong>[PENDING]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> danbri follow up re whether to use survey tool at w3c or elsewhere <br />
&nbsp;<br />
<strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> hhalpin to create draft use-case document in W3C cvs <br />
<strong>[DONE]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> tpa to W3C-style "edit" user stories <br />
&nbsp;<br />

[End of minutes] <br>

<hr>

<address>
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  $Date: 2009/07/07 12:37:45 $
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