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  <title>RDF Data Access Working Group Face to Face Meeting, 2 - 3 March 2006</title>
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  <h1>RDF Data Access Working Group Face to Face Meeting, 2 - 3 March 2006</h1>

  <h2>hosted in Mandelieu France as part of the <a href="http://www.w3.org/2005/12/allgroupoverview">2005 W3C Technical Plenary week</a></h2>

  <div style="text-align: center">
    on this page: <a href= "#who">Participants</a> * <a
    href="#where">Venue</a> * <a href="#rdl">Reading List</a> * <a
    href="#agenda">Agenda/Actions</a> * <a href=
    "#minutes">Minutes</a> * <a href="#chlog">Changes</a><br />
    nearby: <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2003/12/swa/dawg-charter">charter</a> * <a
    href="issues">issues</a> * <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/">public-rdf-dawg
    archive</a> * irc <a href="/2005/02/28-dawg-irc">Mon</a>, <a
    href="/2005/03/01-dawg-irc">Tue</a>
  </div>

  <p>The goals of this meeting are:</p>

  <ul>
    <li>to finish our discussion of Service Descriptions and other
    aspects of the protocol</li>

    <li>to resolve the few outstanding <a href="issues">working
    group issues</a></li>

    <li>to plan for last call 17 March and Candiate Rec in
    April</li>
  </ul>

  <address>
    <br />by Dan Connolly, chair
    <br />with thanks to the scribes: KendallC, EricP, Jacek, JosD
    <br /><small>Minutes formatted by David Booth's <a href=
      "http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm">
      scribe.perl</a> version 1.115</small>
    <br />
    <small>$Revision: 1.50 $ of $Date: 2006/09/08 10:22:58 $</small>
  </address>

    <address>
    </address>

  <div class="roll">
    <h2 id="who">Participants</h2>

    <p>Nine <a href="./#who">Working Group members</a> participated
    in the meeting, representing six W3C member organizations:</p>

    <ol>
      <li><a href="http://www.agfa.com">Agfa-Gevaert N. V.</a>
      <ul>
	<li>Jos <b>De Roo</b> (aka <i>JosD</i> <a
	href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0004.html">intro</a>.
	near <em>Bruxelles, Belgium</em>)</li>
      </ul>
      </li>
      <li><a href="http://www.hp.com/">Hewlett Packard Company</a>
      <ul>
	<li>Andy <b>Seaborne</b> (aka <i>AndyS</i>; <a
	href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0006.html">intro</a>.
	near <tt>BRS</tt>)</li>
      </ul>
      </li>
      <li><a href="http://www.mindlab.umd.edu/index.html">Maryland Information
      and Network Dynamics Lab at the University of Maryland</a>
      <ul>
	<li>Kendall <b>Clark</b> (aka <i>KendallC</i>; <a
	href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0045.html">intro</a>
	near <em>College Park, Maryland, USA</em>, <tt>DCA</tt>)</li>
	<li>Bijan <b>Parsia</b> (in part; aka <i>Bijan</i>; <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0216.html">intro</a>)</li>
      </ul>
      </li>
      <li><a href="http://www.panasonic.co.jp/global/">Matsushita Electric
      Industrial Co., Ltd. (MEI)</a>
      <ul>
	<li>Yoshio <b>Fukushige</b> (aka <i>Yoshio</i>; <a
	href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004AprJun/0138.html">intro</a>;
	near <em>Tokyo, Japan</em>)</li>
      </ul>
      </li>

      <li><a href="http://www.nttinfo.ntt.jp/">Nippon Telegraph &amp; Telephone Corp. (NTT)</a>
      <ul>
	<li>Hiroyuki <b>Sato</b> (<a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0049.html">intro</a>)</li>
      </ul>
      </li>

      <li><a href="http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk">Southampton, University of</a>
      <ul>
	<li>Stephen <b>Harris</b> (aka <i>SteveH</i>; <a
	href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004AprJun/0094.html">intro</a>;
	near <em>Southampton, United Kingdom</em>)</li>
      </ul>
      </li>


      <li><a href="http://www.w3.org/">W3C</a>
      <ul>
	<li>Dan <b>Connolly</b>, chair (aka <i>DanC</i>; <a
	href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0002.html">intro</a>.
	near <tt>MCI</tt>)</li>
	<li>Eric <b>Prud'hommeaux</b>, team contact (aka <i>EricP</i>; <a
	href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0001.html">intro</a>.
	near <tt>NRT</tt>)</li>
      </ul>
      </li>

    </ol>

    <p>A few observers joined us for parts of the meeting:</p>

    <ul>
      <li>Jordi A Albornoz (IBM) <!-- jordi@us.ibm.com --></li>
      <li>Tim Berners-Lee (W3C)</li>
      <li>Lee Feigenbaum (IBM) <!-- feigenbl@us.ibm.com --></li>
      <li>Ivan Herman (W3C)</li>
      <li>Jacek Kopecky  (Digital
      Enterprise Research Institute (DERI)) <!-- jacek.kopecky@deri.org --></li>
      <li>Balaji Prasad  (Electronic
      Data Systems (EDS)) <!-- Balaji.Prasad@eds.com --></li>
      <li>Thomas Roessler (W3C)</li>
      <li>Elias Torres (IBM) <!-- eliast@us.ibm.com --></li>
      <li>Danny Weitzner (W3C)</li>
    </ul>

    <p>Regrets were accepted from Alberto, DaveB, Howard Katz, JanneS,
    Bryan Thompson, Pat Hayes, Farrukh Najmi. DaveB, PatH, and JanneS
    joined us by phone and IRC for a few parts.</p>

    <p><em>chair would like to hear from: Jean-Fran&#231;ois Baget,
    somebody from Network Inference</em></p>


    <p><em>For reference: the <a
    href="http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TP2005/">W3C technical
    plenary registration</a> closed 2005-02-17, and the <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TP2005/registrants#dawg">DAWG
    meeting registrants and observer requests</a> are
    member-confidential</em>.</p>
  </div>

  <div>
    <h2 id="where">Venue</h2>

    <p>The meeting is in Boston, MA, USA, at the</p>

    <blockquote>
      Hyatt Harborside Hotel (at Logan Int'l airport)<br />
      101 Harborside Drive<br />
      Boston, Massachusetts 02128 USA
    </blockquote>

    <p><a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2004/12/allgroupoverview.html#TransportationDetails">
    Transportation Details</a>, <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2004/12/allgroupoverview.html#Venue">Hotel/Venue</a>
    information etc. are orgainzed by the Technical Plenary
    organizers, who can be reached at <tt><a href=
    "mailto:w3t-tpregister@w3.org">w3t-tpregister@w3.org</a></tt>.</p>

    <p>The <a href="http://www.w3.org/2004/12/tp5groups.html">room
    allocations</a> are subject to change, but we have been
    tentatively assigned <b>Olympia C</b>, which should accomodate
    16 participants and 6 observers.</p>

    <p>Remote participation is welcome during teleconference sessions
    <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar.html#s_1618"
    id="monTel">Monday 2:00pm-5:00pm/19:00-22:00 UTC</a> and <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar.html#s_1619"
    id="tueTel">Tuesday 8:30am-11:30am/13:30-16:30 UTC</a>. The <a
    href= "irc://irc.w3.org:6665/dawg">usual #dawg IRC channel</a>
    also provides remote access to the meeting (logs, to appear: <a
    href="/2005/02/28-dawg-irc">Mon</a>, <a href=
    "/2005/03/01-dawg-irc">Tue</a>).</p>
  </div>

  <div>
    <h2 id="rdl">Reading List</h2>

    <p>As discussed <a href=
    "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0133.html">
    15Feb</a>, participants are expected to read the following
    before the meeting. <em>Bonus points for sending review
    comments in email before the meeting.</em></p>

    <ul>
      <li><cite><a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-rdf-sparql-protocol-20050114/">SPARQL
      Protocol for RDF</a></cite> W3C Working Draft 14 January
      2005</li>

      <li><cite><a href="rf1/">SPARQL Variable Binding Results XML
      Format</a></cite> editor's draft Revision: 1.20 $ of 2005/02/28
      19:30:24</li>

      <li><cite><a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20050217/">SPARQL
      Query Language for RDF</a></cite> W3C Working Draft 17
      February 2005</li>
    </ul>
  </div>

  <div>
    <h2 id="agenda">Agenda/Actions</h2>

    <p><em>Before lunch on Monday, WG members are encouraged to
    participate in the <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/interest/meetings/tp2005.html">Semantic
    Web Interest Group meeting</a>.</em></p>

    <ol>
      <li>
        <a href="#item01">Convene, take roll, review records and agenda</a>
        <ul> <li>ACTION DaveB: to consider use of xsi:dataType ala comment from Steer</li></ul>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item02">issue: nestedOptionals</a>
        <ul> <li>ACTION AndyS: to clarify 5.4 w/r/t closed world assumption</li></ul>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item03">f2f6 proposals</a>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item04">test suite maintenance</a>
        <ul> <li>ACTION SteveH: to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs</li><li>ACTION DaveB: to to propose source test to approve</li><li>ACTION JosD: Jos to propose an optional test based on ACTION op:dateTime triple</li><li>ACTION SteveH: to to propose tests for str() and =~</li><li>ACTION EricP: to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page</li></ul>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item05">issue: valueTesting</a>
        <ul> <li>ACTION JosD: to review value testing section</li><li>ACTION AndyS: to add the above graph test cases</li><li>ACTION EricP: to propose to close valueTesting (bonus points for test cases, to EricP or others)</li></ul>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item06">XSCH review</a>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item07">issue: punctuationSyntax (turtle, N3, ...)</a>
        <ul> <li>ACTION EricP: to propose results of N3 syntax discussion to DAWG</li></ul>
      </li>
    </ol>
<p><em>Tuesday...</em></p>
    <ol>
      <li>
        <a href="#item_01">introductions</a>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item_02">issue: nestedOptionals</a>
        <b>closed</b>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item_03">SPARQL abstract protocol, WSDL</a>
      <ul>
	<li>ACTION KendallC: discuss warnings in the protocol
	spec.</li>
	<li>ACTION Bijan: to propose text (story? etc.) to support
	WSDL requirement</li>
	<li>ACTION EricP: to review WSDL text proposal</li><li>ACTION
	AndyS: to explain how to get a whole graph with CONSTRUCT *
	and GRAPH.</li>
	<li>ACTION KendallC: to refer to "get the whole graph"
	explanation from protocol spec</li>
	<li>ACTION KendallC: to add WSDL description of protocol to
	editor's draft, propose to WG:</li>
      </ul>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item_04">issue: fromUnionQuery</a>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item_05">issue: protocolRootReferent</a>
        <b>closed</b>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item_06">Service Descriptions (SADDLE)</a>
        <ul> <li>ACTION KendallC: to incorporate service description discussion notes in protocol spec</li><li>ACTION Bijan: to work on "closeOver" work-alike with SteveH</li></ul>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item_07">Plan for last call</a>
        <ul> <li>ACTION KendallC: to add "since we're using WSDL, you can use WS-Policy..." to protocol draft</li><li>ACTION DanC: to consider adding 'privacy/security' issue, even if we're most likely to just postpone it or mention it in passing in specs</li></ul>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item_08">Protocol testing</a>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item_09">update/insert/manage</a>
      </li>
      <li>
        <a href="#item_10">WSDL mapping input</a>
      </li>
    </ol>

  </div>

  <div class="minutes">
    <h2 id="minutes">Minutes</h2>

    <p>See also: <a href=
    "http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-dawg-irc">IRC log</a></p>


    <div class="meeting">
      <h3 id="item01">Convene, take roll, review records and agenda</h3>

      <p>DanC convened the meeting Monday afternoon with <a
      href="#who">a number of WG members present</a>.</p>

      <p>We <strong class="resolved">RESOLVED to approve <a href=
      "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/att-0202/22-dawg-minutes.htm">
      minutes 22 Feb</a></strong></p>

      <p>We reviewed the <a href="#agenda">agenda</a>. <strong
      class="action"><a name="action01" id="action01"
      href="#action01">ACTION DaveB:</a> to consider use of
      xsi:dataType ala comment from Steer</strong> CONTINUES.</p>

      <p><strong class="resolved">RESOLVED: to meet 8 March. regrets
      DanC, Yoshio. KendallC to chair.</strong></p>

    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item02">issue: nestedOptionals</h3>

      <ul>
	<li>issue: <a href="issues#nestedOptionals">nestedOptionals</a>
	<br />proposals:
	<ul>
	  <li class="proposal">
	    <blockquote>
	      Optional patterns can occur inside any pattern,
	      including another optional pattern, forming a nested
	      pattern. The outer optional block must match for any
	      nested one to be matched.
	      <address><a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20050217/#OptionalMatchingNested">section 5.5 Nested Optional Blocks</a> of the 17 Feb WD</address>
	    </blockquote>
	  </li>
	  <li class="proposal">leave nested optional blocks out of the
	  syntax of SPARQL QL, e.g. by side condition on the
	  grammar</li>
	</ul>
	</li>
      </ul>

      <p>We reviewed the editors' proposal for nested
      optionals. SteveH argued to leave them out of the language
      because the implementation cost is significant and the benefit
      to users is unclear. We looked at some examples and discussed
      the relationship between a query with nested optionals and an
      analagous "flattened" query:</p>


<pre>
OPTIONAL {
  ( ?x  vcard:N ?vc )
  ( ?vc vcard:Given ?gname )
  OPTIONAL ( ?vc  vcard:Family ?fname ) }
</pre>

      <p>The flattening involves some repetition:</p>

<pre>
OPTIONAL { ( ?x vcard:N ?vc )
           ( ?vc vcard:Given ?gname ) }
OPTIONAL { ( ?x vcard:N ?vc )
           ( ?vc vcard:Given ?gname )
           ( ?vc vcard:Family ?fname ) }
</pre>

<p>Jos asked for clarification of the semantics of all optionals:
<tt>A optional B</tt> might be interpreted in one of two ways:</p>
      <ol>
	<li><tt>A &amp; (B v True)</tt>
	<p>which creates unhelpful solutions</p></li>

	<li><tt>A &amp; (B v ~B)</tt>
	<p>where ~B means "B is not a subgraph of the the background graph" (denoted <tt>... log:notIncludes B</tt> in the discussion, alluding to an N3 idiom).</p>
	</li>
      </ol>

      <p>Jos observed a closed-world assumption in the latter
      interpretation, and asked if it was by design. AndyS and EricP
      said that yes, it was. DanC said he thought the WG was aware of
      this in design discussions around optionals, but suggested
      noting it explicitly in the spec.  <strong class="action"><a
      name="action02" id= "action02">ACTION AndyS:</a> to clarify 5.4
      w/r/t closed world assumption</strong></p>

      <p>Discussion returned to <em>nested</em> optionals; Yoshio
      expressed some reservations about the complexity of the
      constraints on the use of variable names.</p>

      <p>Discussion reached a point where the advocates of
      nested optionals and those that argued to exclude them
      maintained their positions strongly but were unable to come up
      with new reasons to convince the other. DanC considered putting
      the question over the objection of one side or the other, but
      instead encouraged both sides to consider the matter outside the
      meeting. Discussion continued in a <a href="#">later item on
      nestedOptionals</a>.</p>

    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item03">f2f6 proposals</h3>

      <ul>
	<li>
	  <blockquote>
	    Asemantics S.r.l offers to host F2F meeting in
	    Leiden 19-20 May, 2005.

	    <address>
	      <a href=
		 "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0072.html">
	      Reggiori 31 Jan</a>
	    </address>
	  </blockquote>
	</li>

	<li>ACTION: SteveH to propose to host in Southampton
	right after XTech (<a href=
	"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0197.html">
	done</a></li>

	<li>Hayes/Florida</li>
      </ul>

      <p>We considered the above offers to host, as well as an offer
      from AndyS to host in Bristol, and the interaction between a
      meeting of this group and events such as <a href=
      "http://www.xtech-conference.org/">XTech</a>, <a href=
      "http://www.eswc2005.org/">ESWC</a>, and WWW2005 10-14 May.
      There was not a critical mass of support around any of them.</p>

      <p>A one day meeting before (or after?) WWW05
      got some interest. A poll about plans to attend WWW2005 showed -JD +AS ~KC +YF +HS +EP +SH -DC ~-PH.</p>

      <p>We acknowledged the risk that if we
      don't decide today when and where to hold our next face-to-face
      meeting, our schedules may fill up, making it inconvenient to do
      so at a later date, but moved on to other items.</p>
    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item04">test suite maintenance</h3>

      <p>for ref: <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/">test
      materials</a>, <a href="df1">turtle</a></p>

      <p>We reviewed a few action items:</p>
      <p><strong class="action">ACTION SteveH: to to revise test manifest w.r.t.
      "background" and named graphs</strong> CONTINUES</p>

      <p><strong class="action">ACTION JosD: Jos to propose an optional test based
      on ACTION op:dateTime triple</strong> CONTINUES.</p>

      <p><strong class="action">ACTION SteveH: to to propose tests for
      str() and =~</strong> CONTINUES.</p>

      <p>DanC clarified that action by sketching a test:</p>


<pre>
SELECT ?PG WHERE
      ?PG dc:creator ?anybody AND ?PG =~ "http://www.w3.org/".
</pre>

      <p>should NOT match <tt>{
      &lt;http://www.w3.org/&gt;
      dc:creator "anybody" }</tt></p>


      <p><strong class="action">ACTION DaveB: to to propose source test to
      approve</strong> CONTINUES</p>

      <p>AndyS noted <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/source-named/">GRAPH
      tests untrusted-graph*.rq</a> and <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/source-named/manifest.n3"
      >source-named/manifest.n3</a> and we looked them over, along
      with the <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#rdfDataset">definition
      of RDF Dataset</a>. DanC's action regarding definitions for
      SOURCE is WITHDRAWN.</p>

      <p>DanC asked steve how the <a href="tests/">test suite page</a>
      is generated from the manifests and such. SteveH explained that
      it involves 3store and some perl scripts which he has cheked
      in. He sent a <a
      href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0223.html">transcript
      of running the makefile</a>. <strong class="action">ACTION
      EricP: to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results
      page</strong>.</p>

    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item05">issue: valueTesting</h3>

      <ul>
	<li>issue: <a href="issues#valueTesting">valueTesting</a></li>
      </ul>

      <p><strong class="action">ACTION JosD: to review <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#tests">value
      testing section</a></strong> CONTINUES. (partial <a href=
      "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0127.html">
      progress</a>)</p>

      <p>AndyS and EricP presented their design for valueTesting in
      the form of some example from the <tt><a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ExprEquals">tests/data/ExprEquals</a></tt>
      directory:</p>

      <iframe  width="90%" height="15em" src="http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ExprEquals/query-eq-1.rq">tests/data/ExprEquals/query-eq-1.rq</iframe>

      <p>evaluated against</p>
      <iframe width="90%" height="15em" src=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ExprEquals/data-eq.ttl">tests/data/ExprEquals/data-eq.ttl</iframe>

      <p>Ivan noted that rdflib reads <tt>"1"</tt> as <tt>1</tt>,
      but KendallC pointed out that its handling of datatypes is known to have bugs.</p>

      <p>We also looked at <tt><a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/ExprEquals/query-eq2-1.rq"
      >tests/data/ExprEquals/query-eq2-1.rq</a></tt>, which shows how
      the <tt>=</tt> syntax relates to functions and operators,
      obsoleting <tt>==</tt>, <tt>eq</tt>, and <tt>ne</tt>. Yoshio
      pointed out that the editor's draft still shows <tt>==</tt> in
      some places; the editors acknolwedged this as a bug.</p>

      <p>TimBL suggested re-using the
      investment in valueTesting test cases by copying them to graph
      test cases. e.g.</p>

<pre>
... (?x1 :p ?v1 )
    (?x2 :p ?v2 )
    AND ?v1 = ?v2
</pre>

<p>has an analog...</p>

<pre>
(?x1 :p ?v)
(?x2 :p ?v)
</pre>

      <p><strong class="action">ACTION AndyS: to add the above graph
      test cases</strong></p>

      <p>We discussed not-equal tests, in particular the relationship
      between "known to be not equal" and "not known to be equal":</p>
<pre>
SELECT ... WHERE
    (?exp :results ?x) (?exp2 :results ?y) AND ?x != ?y
</pre>

      <p> against <tt>{ exp1
      result "1/1"^^rational. exp2 result "2/2"^^rational)</tt>.</p>

      <p>EricP thought the editor's design would have the <tt>!=</tt>
      test fail, which TimBL supported. But AndyS walked through the
      evaluation in more detail and found that the <tt>!=</tt> would
      turn into <tt>fn:not(... = ...)</tt> and since the <tt>=</tt>
      test would fail, the <tt>fn:not(... = ...)</tt> test would
      succeed.  EricP and others seemed confident this could be
      fixed.</p>

      <p>PatH asked about the case of <tt>"abc"^^integer</tt>.  DanC
      encouraged that to be captured as a test case. Other cases that
      seem worth testing include:</p>

      <ul>
	<li><tt>"10"^^byte = "10"^^integer?</tt></li>
	<li><tt>"10"^^long = "10"^^integer</tt></li>
	<li><tt>"10"^^nonnegative = "10"^^integer?</tt></li>
      </ul>

      <p><strong class="action">ACTION EricP:  to propose to close
      valueTesting (bonus points for test cases, to EricP or
      others)</strong></p>

      <p>Jacek pointed out the list of datatypes in <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-mt/#DTYPEINTERP">a section of the RDF
      model theory spec</a> and suggested they should all be supported
      by SPARQL. DanC encouraged Jacek to discuss such a proposed
      requirement in the break, and pointed to the XSCH document as
      reasons why not, which brought us to our next agendum</p>

    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item06">XSCH review</h3>

      <ul>
	<li><a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/XSCH/xsch-sw-20050127/">XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL</a> Editors' Draft Date: 2005/01/27 20:06:45</li>
      </ul>

      <p>PatH is done reviewing it. As a WG, we don't see any issues
      to raise at this time, though we may take another look after
      it's published as a WD. EricP's action to review it is
      WIDTHDRAWN.</p>
    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item07">issue: punctuationSyntax (turtle, N3,
      ...)</h3>

      <p>DanC invited TimBL to discuss SPARQL punctuationSyntax with
      the group, after consulting a few WG members in the break, as a
      way of addressing the risk around our <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf4.html#item18">decision
      in Helsinki to adopt <tt>(s p o)</tt> syntax over EricP's
      objection</a>. Since this wasn't on the agenda well in advance
      and some of the advocates of the status quo weren't present,
      DanC said we would make no binding decisions here. Kendall
      advised adding this to the issues list, and DanC agreed:</p>

      <ul>
	<li>issue: <a href="issues#punctuationSyntax">punctuationSyntax</a></li>
      </ul>


      <p>We reviewed the examples from Helsinki; after some discussion
      of what exactly EricP had been proposing then, DanC projected a
      number of examples and we went over them together:</p>

<pre>

SELECT *
WHERE { ?p ?s ?o }

# NO
# SELECT *
# WHERE { ?p ?s ?o }.


##

PREFIX foaf: &lt;http://example/foaf#>

SELECT ?me ?you
WHERE { ?me foaf:knows ?you. ?you foaf:knows &lt;fred> }

##

@@
WHERE { ?me rdf:type foaf:Person.} # trailing thingy in lexer
WHERE { ?me rdf:type foaf:Person .} # parses same as above


WHERE { GRAPH ?g  { ?g dc:source myPartOfUriSpace:foo.rdf } }  # sh, ar like this
  # tibml doesn't like it. cwm, jos, timbl note this implies an N3 change
  # SH notes not doing this involves a difference from turtle
  # closer to XML (but not quite, see above)
  # yes.


##
PREFIX foo: &lt;http://www.w3.org/>
SELECT ?p ?o
WHERE { ?s ?p ?o . ?o ?p2 ?o2}

##
PREFIX foo: &lt;http://www.w3.org/>
CONSTRUCT { ?s foo:bop ?o2 .
            ?o2 foo:bing ?o }
WHERE { ?s foo:bar ?o .
        ?o foo:baz ?o2 }


##
WHERE { :bob :brothers (:joe :sam) }

##
WHERE { ?doc dc:title ?txt; dc:author ?who }

##

WHERE { ?who :has ?car, ?boat. ?car rdf:type :Auto. ?boat rdf:type :AquaVehicle }
WHERE { ?who :has ?car, ?boat; foaf:knows ?f1, ?f2 }.
# commas in XML names?

##

WHERE { ?who a foaf:Person } # yes

WHERE { ?who = ?whoElse } # *not* short for owl:sameAs

#
SELECT ?who WHERE { ?who :brother [ in Army ], :mother [ in Navy] . }

SELECT ?who WHERE { ?who :borthers (:pete :sam). }

# AK notes AND can/could go as a result.

SELECT ?who WHERE { ?who :age ?n. FILTER ?n + 1 &lt; 5 }
SELECT ?who WHERE { ?who :age ?n. SUCHTHAT ?n + 1 &lt; 5 }
SELECT ?who { ?who :age ?n. WHERE ?n + 1 &lt; 5 } # EP, SH, ? perfer. like SQL, in a way

# no SELECT ?who WHERE { ?who :age ?n . ?n + 1 &lt; 5 } # AFS: list () interferes
#SELECT ?who WHERE { ?who :age ?n AND ?n + 1 &lt; 5 } # KC, SH prefer
#SELECT ?who WHERE { ?who :age ?n. (?n + 1 &lt; 5) } # ew

</pre>

      <p>One summary was "turtle plus variables".</p>


      <p>SteveH said his users
      are mostly folks dumping databases into RDF/XML; he supports
      turtle input and noone uses it.</p>

      <p>There was some discussion of whether it's essential to choose
      just one syntax. The possibility of a number of presentation
      syntaxes, with an exchange syntax in XML, was discussed.</p>

      <p>The details of qname syntax, especially where periods are
      allowed, was discussed at some length. <em><a
      href="http://www.w3.org/2005/02/28-dawg-irc#T21-52-42">IRC notes
      starting 21:52:42Z have some additional technical
      details</a>.</em></p>

      <p>DanC observed some support for "turtle plus variables" and
      the editors seemed interested to persue it. DanC asked if the WG
      would like to see a proposal edited into the editor's
      draft. Preference seemed to be for a separate email
      proposal. DanC was to send the examples we discussed to EricP
      who would send them to the WG.  <strong class="action">ACTION
      EricP: to propose results of N3 syntax discussion to
      DAWG</strong></p>

    </div>

    <p><em>Then we recessed for the evening.</em></p>

    <div>
      <h3 id="item_01">introductions</h3>

      <p>DanC introduces the WG members and some of the observers to
      each other. Elias, Lee, and Jordie from IBM described some of
      their work on a Semantic Web toolkit for life science
      research. At the <a
      href="http://www.w3.org/2004/07/swls-ws.html">W3C Workshop on
      Semantic Web for Life Sciences</a>, the IBM position paper,
      <cite><a href=
      "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swls-ws/2004Sep/0069.html"
      >Knowledge Integrated Modeling (KIM), an application for the
      Semantic Layered Research Platform (SLRP)</a></cite> discussed
      their work.</p>

    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item_02">issue: nestedOptionals</h3>

      <p><em>continued from <a href="#item02">Monday's
      discussion...</a></em></p>

      <ul>
	<li>issue: <a href="issues#nestedOptionals">nestedOptionals</a>
	<br />proposals:
	<ul>
	  <li class="proposal">
	    <blockquote>
	      Optional patterns can occur inside any pattern,
	      including another optional pattern, forming a nested
	      pattern. The outer optional block must match for any
	      nested one to be matched.
	      <address><a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20050217/#OptionalMatchingNested">section 5.5 Nested Optional Blocks</a> of the 17 Feb WD</address>
	    </blockquote>
	  </li>
	  <li class="proposal">leave nested optional blocks out of the
	  syntax of SPARQL QL, e.g. by side condition on the
	  grammar</li>
	</ul>
	</li>
      </ul>


      <p>After some review of the arguments for (design coherence) and
      against (implementation complexity) and some straw polls, we
      <strong class="resolved">RESOLVED to close issue nestedOptionals
      as per <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20050217/">http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-rdf-sparql-query-20050217/</a>,
      with <em>JosD</em>, <em>KendallC</em>, <em>Bijan</em>, <em>SteveH</em>
      abstaining</strong></p>


    </div>

    <p><em>We began to discuss issue fromUnionQuery, but it may turn
    out to be addressed by either the protocol or the query language
    (or both). Then we began to discuss service descriptions, which
    exposed some assumptions about the protocols. So we turned our
    attention to the protocol for a bit. See below for <a
    href="#item_04">discussion of fromUnionQuery</a></em>, <a
    href="#item_06">discussion of service descriptions (SADDLE)</a>
    </p>

    <div>
      <h3 id="item_03">SPARQL abstract protocol, WSDL</h3>

      <p>We looked at <a href="proto-wd/">SPARQL Protocol for RDF
      editor's draft</a> Revision: 1.17 of 2005/02/26 21:51:28</p>

      <p><strong class="action">ACTION KendallC: discuss warnings in
      the protocol spec</strong> continues.</p>

      <p>DanC went over <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/prot26">his input in the
      form of a protocol spec</a>. Kendall noted this treatment of
      Warning might be too specific to HTTP caching. Bijan said this
      treatment of the protcol doesn't meet Fujitsu labs's needs
      because it doesn't have an abstract layer so that they can
      relate it to SOAP. He sent <a
      href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0224.html">some
      notes on Fujitsu's implementation experience</a>, with <a
      href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/att-0224/OWLBase.wsdl">OWLBase.wsdl</a>
      attached. Regarding "ACTION: EricP: to investigate WSDL/SOAP
      encodings of SPARQL protocol" EricP offered <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2005/02/25-SPARQL-Prototocol/SPARQL-P.wsdl"
      >SPARQL-P.wsdl</a>. We reviewed our <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-dawg-uc/#d4.10">Addressable Query Results</a> design objective, and discussed WSDL's ability to describe GET as well as POST interactions.</p>


      <p>DanC noted that the number of requests for a WSDL description
      seems to be reaching a critical mass, though we don't have a
      relevant requirement. He asked to discuss use cases.</p>

      <p>Bijan said that Fujitsu does large-scale integration; their
      middleware uses RDF &amp; OWL, they have a protocol that allows
      querying<br /> ... they want to interoperate with everything
      that uses Web services<br /> ... all the MS Office operations
      now support SOAP<br /> ... so they want to be able to call
      uniformly SPARQL or Word. Observers from IBM said their
      experience was similar. <a href=
      "http://java.sun.com/products/jms/">JMS</a> was another example
      of a protocol besides HTTP where a SPARQL binding would be
      useful. A poll showed considerable support for adding this
      requirement, and we <strong class="resolved">RESOLVED: A WSDL
      description shall be included in the protocol specification,
      <em>AndyS</em>, <em>JosD</em> abstaining.</strong> <strong
      class="action">ACTION Bijan: to propose text (story? etc.)  to
      support WSDL requirement</strong> <strong class="action">ACTION
      EricP: to review WSDL text proposal
      </strong>
      </p>

      <p>Bijan asked should the story mention or not mention specific
      companies? DanC expressed a small preference for
      specifics. Kendall said the other stories are "sanitized"; DanC
      said that mentioning one specific company brings some obligation
      to mention others, to be fair.</p>

      <p>EricP introduced a <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2005/02/25-SPARQL-Prototocol/">protocol spec based on WSDL</a>, aimed at readership that doesn't already know WSDL<br />
      ... the URI encoding is like CGI parameters<br />
      ... it has parameters and normative binding to HTTP</p>

      <p>Then we did an excercise to (a) learn WSDL and (b) compare the abstract protocol from the editor's draft with the WSDL description EricP had drafted. DanC edited <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0250.html">a WSDL description</a> in realtime:</p>

<iframe src="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0250.html" width="80%" height="20em">
<a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0250.html">wsdl thingy</a></iframe>

      <p>We skipped over much of the material on types and faults. The
      OperationPoint class seemed to match WSDL's notion of
      <dfn>endpoint</dfn>.</p>

      <p>We discussed <tt>WITH</tt>/<tt>FROM</tt> QL syntax
      vs. putting it in the protocol, and what to do if it shows up in
      both places. We explored putting it in the protocol, and
      deferred whether to keep it in the QL. Bijan asked about putting
      it in an attribute, but Jacek pointed out that we need to use an
      element in order to match the WSDL URI operation style.</p>

      <p>DanC paused before transcribing the getGraph abstract syntax,
      asking if it belonged. Andy argued that while it seems very
      useful, it doesn't seem specific to SPARQL. JacekK pointed out
      that WS-Transfer specifies a a GET operation.  Kendall said that
      we still need to discuss how to get the whole graph.  Steve and
      others offered <tt>CONSTRUCT * WHERE GRAPH &lt;uri&gt; (?x ?y
      ?z)</tt>. That wasn't quite right, but discussion of the details
      was taken offline: <strong class="action">ACTION AndyS: to
      explain how to get a whole graph with CONSTRUCT * and
      GRAPH.</strong> <strong class="action">ACTION KendallC: to refer
      to "get the whole graph" explanation from protocol
      spec</strong></p>


      <p>Then we discussed getServiceDescription. EricP said it looks
      like the namespace document problem.  JacekK pointed out that
      discovery is already handled in the protocols (HTTP OPTIONS,
      SOAP WS-MetadataExchange). AndyS said it seems orthogonal and
      not somethign we should require. DanC asked about including it
      in a separate interface, and that got quite a bit of support.
      It was PROPOSED: that the SPARQL WSDL description shall have 2
      interfaces (SPARQLQuery and SPARQLDiscovery), each with one
      operation, but a poll showed insufficient support. <strong
      class="action" id="wsdlProposal">ACTION KendallC: to add WSDL
      description of protocol to editor's draft, propose to
      WG.</strong></p>

    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item_04">issue: fromUnionQuery</h3>

      <p>DanC attempted to summarize the long history of this issue:
      if you say <tt>FROM URI1, URI2</tt> is that the union, the merge
      or what? In our <a href="ftf4.html#item07">Helsinki discussion of fromUnionQuery</a>, we had three
      groups of options<br />
      ... the URIs were only hints in the first version<br />
      ... then: drop FROM/WITH and leave it to the system<br />
      ... later: specify what the keywords do</p>

      <p>AndyS reported on the current editor's draft: the FROM
      accepts list but we don't say how. He noted that the test cases
      need to specify the dataset even if there's no QL syntax for
      it. He noted a proposal from Alberto based on comments: to
      s/WITH/FROM/ ; s/FROM/FROM NAMED/.</p>

      <p>Andy re-iterated the <a
      href="http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-dawg-uc/#r3.5">local queries
      requirement</a>: sometimes we don't have a protocol.  SteveH
      argued that there's always some API... </p>

      <p>We discussed possible intereactions, e.g. in case of
      <tt>mySvc?query=$query;from=http://ex/data.rdf</tt> where <tt>$query =
      SELECT ?x FROM http://exb/datab.rdf</tt> .</p>

      <p>DanC pointed out the separate "RDF content URIs" field of the
      <a href="http://librdf.org/query">Redland Rasqal RDF Query
      Demonstration</a>, and said that appealed to him. AndyS pointed
      out that <a href="http://sparql.org/query.html">sparqler</a>
      does it the other way.  DanC polled for support for taking
      FROM/WITH out of QL; 3-ish seemed in favor. DanC asked the
      editors what the impact would be; AndyS said it seems to involve
      taking out <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#specifyingDataset">section
      9</a></p>

      <p>Andy clarified that no, this doesn't impact the
      <tt>GRAPH</tt> (nee SOURCE) keyword syntax. That brought up some concerns from SteveH about how RDF datasets work in the case of <tt>SELECT ?a WHERE GRAPH ?g ...</tt> vs <tt>SELECT ?a WHERE ...</tt>. Andy noted a <a href=
      "http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0070.html">28 Jan message with a number of example datasets</a>. We looked at <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#sourcePlainGraph">an example in  section 8.4</a>. </p>


      <p>After quite a bit of discussion, much of which escaped the
      chair and the scribe, <strong class="resolved">Contingent on
      agreement to <a href="#wsdlProposal">a proposal to have DataSet
      in our WSDL description</a>, we RESOLVED: to remove section 9
      Combining WITH and FROM from QL; i.e. remove WITH/FROM
      syntax. abstaining: <em>AnydS</em>, <em>Yoshio</em>,
      <em>HiroyukiS</em> abstaining.</strong>.</p>
    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item_05">issue: protocolRootReferent</h3>

      <ul>
	<li>issue: <a href="issues#protocolRootReferent">protocolRootReferent</a></li>
      </ul>
      <p><strong class="resolved">RESOLVED: that
      doing WSDL addresses protocolRootReferent. abstaining: KC,
      SH</strong>.</p>
    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item_06">Service Descriptions (SADDLE)</h3>

      <p>We returned to <a href="proto-wd/">SPARQL Protocol for RDF
      editor's draft</a> Revision: 1.17 of 2005/02/26 21:51:28, which
      discharges his actions: KendallC to to think about predicate to
      relate html-forms and svc descriptions, and how this goes into
      the spec; KendallC to Add section for service descriptions and
      put graph specifying in it to start it off; to wit: <a href=
      "proto-wd/#saddle">section 7. SPARQL Service Advertisement and
      Discovery Language (SADDLE)</a>. Kendall updated us on his
      progress: I did some changes to naming, added
      invocableOperations ...<br /> ... added saddle:operationTarget
      to tell me which graphs I can interact with<br /> ... added
      acceptSerializationFormat...
      <br />... nervous about acceptSerializationFormat, redundant to
      content negotiation<br />
      ... another issue - how do you identify the various subsets
      of OWL<br />
      ... invocableOps can contain IDs of the ops in our
      protocol<br />
      ... can vary according to graphs, can choose not to support
      GetGraph on a huge graph</p>

      <p>SteveH asked how to express support for extended functions (&amp;ex:myFunc(?x)), and reiterated hopes forsomething
      where you wouldn't have to repeat the properties shared
      between services</p>

      <p>DanC reiterated (from Helsinki) the observation that protocol
      description is an arbitrarily large design space and that
      service descriptions are open ended and can use arbitrary RDF
      vocabularies, so we should focus on our own experience: let's
      look for terms where two parties can demonstrate interop.</p>

      <p>Yoshio asked if saddle:supportsDatatype was limited to XSD
      types; Kendall clarified: no, any datatype is fine. Questions
      about operations on datatypes led to no clear answers.</p>

      <p>DanC asked how OperationPoint works. Kendall said that if
      something is an OperationPoint, you can GET a service
      description there. DanC said he thought servicing queries at uri
      X needn't imply offering a service description at
      X. <em>Discussion of service description resumed after <a
      href="#item_03">SPARQL abstract protocol, WSDL</a>.</em> DanC
      edited <a
      href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/att-0225/ftf5-desc.txt">some
      service description material</a> on-screen. The result was:</p>

<iframe width="90%" height="20em"
src="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/att-0225/ftf5-desc.txt">tf5-desc.txt</iframe>


      <p>We discussed the impact of a dependency on WSDL 2.0. Bijan
      said he expects a second last call soon. EricP said he thinks
      the part we depend on is not likely to change. Bijan said that
      the WSDL/RDF mapping is likely to finish at the same time as
      WSDL 2.0, so depending on it doesn't lengthen our
      schedule. AndyS and DanC expressed some concerns. Bijan said it
      would be useful to have also WSDL 1.1 (perhaps
      non-normative).</p>


      <p class='phone'><cite>DanC:</cite> do we need a
      superinterface to the two we already have? will we have to do
      transitive closure?</p>

      <p class='phone'><cite>bijan:</cite> the RDF mapping will do
      that transitive closure itself</p>

      <p class='phone'><cite>DanC:</cite> we need to redecide on
      the interfaces</p>

      <p>We discussed the combination of the SPARQLQuery and
      SPARQLDiscovery interfaces. Bijan pointed out that interface
      inheritance will be done "before" mapping to RDF, so the
      combination interface won't show up in RDF. <strong
      class="resolved">RESOLVED: that the SPARQL WSDL description
      shall have 3 interfaces (SPARQLQuery and SPARQLDiscovery and
      SPARQLQueryAndDiscovery), each with one operation, contingent on
      agreement to adopt <a href="#wsdlProposal">a WSDL
      description</a>a WSDL description; <em>AndyS</em>, <em>JosD</em>
      abstaining</strong></p>

      <p><em>Discussion resumed briefly after lunch...</em></p>

      <p><strong class="action">ACTION KendallC: to incorporate
      service description discussion notes in protocol
      spec</strong></p>

      <p><em>Discussion resumed after a break, when Bijan re-joined
      us. We fidgeted to get the whiteboard near the phone and
      such...</em></p>

      <p>Bijan explained how in OWL, sometimes the "deductive closure"
      isn't well-defined, especially in cases involving
      disjunction.
      We discussed an example: <tt>:bob
      :loves [ a [ owl:unionOf (:Students :Faculty) ] ]</tt>
      </p>

      <p>We discussed SteveH's
      "computer science lit" service... it's "close over RDFS" in
      some sense. we're considering: <tt> _:ukLitSvc
      saddle:closedOver rdfs:semantics.</tt>
      <strong class="action">ACTION Bijan: to work on "closeOver"
      work-alike with SteveH</strong></p>


      <p><em>Chair is considering acknowledging ServiceDescription as
      an issue.</em></p>

    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item_07">Plan for last call</h3>

      <p>DanC reviewed the WG schedule: LC was to be 17
      March but things have changed.
      Kendall asked how long LC should last; DanC said it has to be at least 3 weeks, and it should be long enough to get responses regarding our dependencies, e.g. did we use XQuery functions and operators correctly? Speaking of which, PaulC wandered in and noted that XQuery
      plans to go to last call (really last call this time, he thinks)
      4 Apr, and DanC agreed to get DAWG to review it during the 3 to 6 weeks that follow.</p>


      <p>We discussed whether all our docs should go to last call
      together or separately. Issues that span documents argue for
      going to LC together, but not compellingly. Bijan estimated that
      he could get better review if the QL and protocol went
      separately. There was some support for doing LC 1st and protocol
      a few weeks alter. Test case development was likely to go that
      way too.</p>


      <p>Bijan asked DanC to consider adding the XML Schema connection
      to VBR to the issues list. Yoshio asked about privacy/security.
      <strong class="action">ACTION KendallC: to add "since we're
      using WSDL, you can use WS-Policy..." to protocol
      draft</strong>. <strong class="action">ACTION DanC: to consider
      adding 'privacy/security' issue, even if we're most likely to
      just postpone it or mention it in passing in specs</strong>
      </p>

      <p>Kendall noted 2 open issues for QL: fromUnionQuery and
      punctuationSyntax.
      DanC expresed a hope to close
      syntax issue in the March 8 telecon.</p>


      <p>Our best guess for Maybe LC candidate (for review by WG
      members, leading to an LC decision) for the QL is March 31.
      Regarding schedule and availability, AndyS plans to take
      vacation April 1 - 8. For protocol, best guess is maybe 4 Apr
      for LC candidate.</p>

    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item_08">Protocol testing</h3>

      <p>We briefly discussed protocol testing, with no actions nor
      decisions.</p>
    </div>
    <div>
      <h3 id="item_09">update/insert/manage</h3>

      <p>DanC added this item to the agenda to take advantage of input
      from observers. He noted that <a
      href="http://www.w3.org/2003/12/swa/dawg-charter#update">section
      2.4 Graph Update Protocol</a> of our charter is listed under
      "out of scope", though Kendall has pointed out that the text
      doesn't clearly rule it out of scope. DanC said some notice to
      the W3C membership seemed in order before beginning substantive
      work on update in any case, and an activity proposal seemed like
      the wise thing to do, to get explicit mandate; then a WG should
      start with story-telling/use-cases/requirements and so on. He
      invited each person at the table to tell their experience with
      update protocols and give input to the standardization
      discussion.</p>

      <dl>
	<dt>DanC</dt>
	<dd>We have a <a href=
      "http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Diff">research paper on diff/delta</a>.</dd>
	<dt>Bijan</dt>
	<dd>There is considerable prior work on ontology evolution. We
	have done some work on a Diff format for RDF graphs and OWL
	ontologies using Annotea. If not updating the expressed/told
	graph, deleting is difficult. Biggest issue: if yr not
	updating the told graph only, then you have choices about
	deletion... Deleting an inferred triple might require truth
	maintenance. Like the view update problem, only worse.
	</dd>

	<dt>Kendall</dt>
        <dd>Being able to add/delete told triples would be of near
        term use to UMD clients</dd>

      <dt>Lee/IBM</dt>

      <dd>Only working w/
      told graphs right now, but everything is
      collaborative, so they need to be able to ready *and*
      write.
      <p>V. interested in
      change history over graphs for
      auditability</p>

      <p>interested in transactions for graph changes; and managing
      resource contention ... locking, update/merge before write
      ... do we use XML documentsfor atomicity of changes?</p>

      <p> notification of graph changes by giving server a pattern --
      via JMS... pub/sub... triggers</p>

      <p>... with
      reification, we've be able to address [update/delete]
      individual statements</p>
      </dd>

      <dt>SteveH</dt><dd> Have been
      playing with SQL-style INSERT and UPDATE... but deployed
      code is just POST/PUT to replace or augment an exisitng
      graph
      </dd>
      <dt>HiroyukiS</dt>
      <dd>
      <p>welcome
      DanC's proposal from a user's perspective</p>

      </dd>
      <dt>Yoshio</dt>
      <dd>
      <p>Is it necessary to
      delete/make others delete obsolute triples? just asserting
      them as obsolute is not enough? (leaving the others decide
      whom/what to believe) ... worried about
      user experience if there is inconsistency consequence of an
      update</p>

      <p> just
      asserting statements is enough. leave for user to decide what
      it correct. ... inconsistency
      could be nature of RDF world</p>
      </dd>
      <dt>TimBL</dt>
      <dd>
      <p> subscription
      to a form of query is the dream... interested
      in applying a patch derived from graph to another</p>
      </dd>
      <dt>DanC for BrianT</dt>
      <dd>

      <p>DanC: BrianT's
      customers are gangbusters on update</p>
      </dd>

      <dt>Kendall</dt>
      <dd>
      <p>Working against
      told triples is worth standardizing</p>
      </dd>

      <dt>AndyS</dt>
      <dd>
	<p> groupware
      problems different from RSS diffs. solving all is like
      boiling the ocean ... can we pick a
      subspace for a charter?</p>
      </dd>

      <dt>JosD</dt>
      <dd>
      <p>JosD: we cope wiht
      changes on different levels ... clinical
      practice guidelines change slowly... additive
      behavior, taking snapshots</p>
      </dd>

      </dl>


      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>kendall</cite>&gt; JacekK: do we
      want to do any kind of graph update thing?</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>patH</cite>&gt; OK, Yoshio, I
      understand. BUt SPARQL is aimed as RDF-specific QL, right?
      And RDF itself has no inconsistency.</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; TimBl: lots of
      different apps and different diff alogorithms, but the diff
      format was always the same</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>kendall</cite>&gt; we want something
      that seems a lot more primitive (?) than diffing and patching
      graphs and sending those around. But -shrug-</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Yoshio</cite>&gt; patH: so my guess
      is the current issue is something to be treated elswhere than
      SPARQL deals...</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>patH</cite>&gt; Yes, i wuld hope so.
      We ahve anough trouble with ===.</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AndyS</cite>&gt; It's an informing
      open discussion</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>patH</cite>&gt; OK, didnt mean to
      rain on parade.</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; KendallC: want a
      method in the protocol to send triples to a graph. also want
      delete (results of a query)</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>patH</cite>&gt; While being open,
      though, I suggest worrrying too much about consistency isnt
      useful, eg dont thik we need paraconsistency to handle it in
      practice.</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; timBl: sounds like
      what we are doing</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; JoseD: can you
      delete rules?</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>patH</cite>&gt; Can anyone stop you
      deleting rules?</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>patH</cite>&gt; timBl, I'd like to
      know more about what you guys are doing. POint?</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; i think it was
      quesiton of implementation</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; JacekK: do we want
      direct change of the graph? or submit somehting to a
      processor that may or not result in a change.</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; ?</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>kendall</cite>&gt; some people wld
      argue that much POST usage is mis-usage. :&gt;</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; ... more like
      POST.</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; Jacek: when people
      use POST, they defer to the service.</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; ... maybe SPARQL
      should stay at that level</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; ... leave it up to
      higher level protocols</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>patH</cite>&gt; kendall, imagine
      trying to track changes in a dynamic graph resource, eg
      produced from a newsfeed.</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AndyS</cite>&gt; Hmm - update/diff
      language vs/as well as update services</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>kendall</cite>&gt; hmm, i'll chew on
      that, path</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; ack eric`</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; kendall, you wanted
      to ask what a separate way of representing a graph diff buys
      over using sparql queries.</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; PatH, feel free to
      dial</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; TimBl: updtae is
      like a query except UPDATE, DELETE or BECOMES instead ofn
      CONSTRUCT</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>AndyS</cite>&gt; +1 to update
      language appraoch</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; KendallC: any truth
      maint?</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; TimBl: no. need to
      get functional properties</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; AndyS: seem to be
      in a rules world</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>ericP</cite>&gt; JacekK: we are
      mapping to HTTP GET and update mappings would probably get
      mapped to PUT, DELETE, POST</p>

      <p class='irc'>&lt;<cite>Zakim</cite>&gt; JacekK, you wanted
      to respond to "just doing a service that updates a graph" and
      "full deployment of PUT and DELETE" as opposed to
      availability</p>
    </div>

    <div>
      <h3 id="item_10">WSDL mapping input</h3>

      <p>Bijan showed two WSDL/RDF mappings and collected input on
      them.  <em>chair neglected to ask Bijan to share a copy for the
      record.</em> Pros and cons of each were discussed, with no
      particular conclusion.</p>


    </div>

    <p> ADJOURN.</p>

  </div>
<div><h2 id="chlog">Changes</h2>
<p>Changes since <a
href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0288.html">11
March call for review</a>:</p>

<pre><!-- log starts on next line, not this one -->
$Log: ftf5-bos.html,v $
Revision 1.50  2006/09/08 10:22:58  eric
~ correct dates

Revision 1.49  2005/03/15 16:09:26  connolly
- removed status disclaimer
- removed "who to scribe?" note
- KC's action on warnings continues
- cleaned up update discussion some
- truncated WSDL mapping notes some
- noted WSDL decisions continent on WSDL proposal
- finished scribe list
- re-ordered TOC to match page order
- added changes since call for review

</pre>
</div>

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