17-mediafrag-minutes.html
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<title>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference -- 17 Nov
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<h1>Media Fragments Working Group Teleconference</h1>
<h2>17 Nov 2010</h2>
<p><a href=
'http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-fragment/2010Nov/0029.html'>
Agenda</a></p>
<p>See also: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-irc">IRC log</a></p>
<h2><a name="attendees" id="attendees">Attendees</a></h2>
<div class="intro">
<dl>
<dt>Present</dt>
<dd>Thomas, Yves, Erik, Raphael, Silvia_(irc),
Philip_(irc)</dd>
<dt>Regrets</dt>
<dd>Davy</dd>
<dt>Chair</dt>
<dd>Raphael</dd>
<dt>Scribe</dt>
<dd>Raphael</dd>
</dl>
</div>
<h2>Contents</h2>
<ul>
<li>
<a href="#agenda">Topics</a>
<ol>
<li><a href="#item01">1. Admin</a></li>
<li><a href="#item02">2. Media Fragment
Specification</a></li>
<li><a href="#item03">3. Media fragments URI on web
page</a></li>
<li><a href="#item04">4. AOB</a></li>
</ol>
</li>
<li><a href="#ActionSummary">Summary of Action Items</a></li>
</ul>
<hr />
<div class="meeting">
<p class='phone'></p>
<p class='phone'></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 17 November
2010</p>
<p class='phone'>trackbot, start telecon</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Meeting: Media
Fragments Working Group Teleconference</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Date: 17 November
2010</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> hamburg, germany,
yes</p>
<h3 id="item01">1. Admin</h3>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> Scribe: Raphael</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>> Scribenick:
raphael</p>
<p class='phone'>PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 7th F2F
meeting:</p>
<p class='phone'>- <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>- <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>erik</cite>> +1 (but am still
reading it though :)</p>
<p class='phone'>+1</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> pass ;-)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> +1</p>
<p class='phone'>minutes accepted</p>
<h3 id="item02">2. Media Fragment Specification</h3>
<p class='phone'>For IBBT ...</p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-192?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-192 -- Davy
Van Deursen to update the specification to state what the
processing should do when media fragments request (time
dimension) does not match exactly how the media item has been
encoded -- due 2010-11-08 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/192">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/192</a></p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-193?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-193 -- Erik
Mannens to make a schema for the server redirect recipe -- due
2010-11-08 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/193">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/193</a></p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-195?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-195 -- Davy
Van Deursen to add a paragraph in the section 7.1 to specify
that video, audio, img or any href is all treated similarly
(range request issued when facing a media fragment) -- due
2010-11-08 -- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/195">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/195</a></p>
<p class='phone'>ACTION-191?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ACTION-191 -- Yves
Lafon to update the production rules of the time dimension with
the npt format for making the hours optional -- due 2010-11-08
-- OPEN</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/191">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/actions/191</a></p>
<p class='phone'>Yves started to do it during the f2f meeting,
needs to add a sentence in the spec</p>
<p class='phone'>ISSUE-19?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> ISSUE-19 --
Parsing must be defined normatively in the MF spec itself --
open</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/19">http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/tracker/issues/19</a></p>
<p class='phone'>Philip has proposed a number of patches, see
result at <a href=
"http://people.opera.com/philipj/2010/11/04/media-fragments-spec/overview.html">
http://people.opera.com/philipj/2010/11/04/media-fragments-spec/overview.html</a></p>
<p class='phone'>Yves has discussed this with Philip which sort
of outdate this proposal</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> the result is that we
should keep the grammar as it is, + some clarification text on
the purpose of the grammar<br />
... + a normative algorithm for parsing<br />
... we need consensus and approval from Jack, Silvia, and Davy
at least in the group + feedback from the implementers</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> is the proposal
formally specified somewhere?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> I'm probably ok with
it but don't want to give a blind vote</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> what this clarification
text should express?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> the purpose of the
grammar is to describe the "normal" syntax, ie: the one that
should be created</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> ie: it is not the
parsing rules</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> where we should write
this ?</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> at the beginning of section
4 and appendix D<br />
... as a reminder</p><a name="action01" id="action01"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> raphael to add a clarification text
regarding the purpose of the grammar [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Sorry, couldn't
find user - raphael</p><a name="action02" id="action02"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to add a clarification text
regarding the purpose of the grammar [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-199
- Add a clarification text regarding the purpose of the grammar
[on Raphaël Troncy - due 2010-11-24].</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> regarding the parsing
algorithm</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> back to a very detailed
description of the algorithm<br />
... I would like to read it crisp and procedural<br />
... we need an agreement that the parsing algorithm become
normative<br />
... I would agree that given this clarification of role, the
algorithm become normative</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> I agree too</p>
<p class='phone'>Silvia, would you have any objection of having
a detailed parsing algorithm of a media fragment URI nomative
in the spec instead of an annex?</p>
<p class='phone'>Two versions of the algorithm</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>scribe:</cite> 1/ <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-uri-syntax">
http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Fragments/WD-media-fragments-spec/#processing-uri-syntax</a><br />
... 2/ <a href=
"http://people.opera.com/philipj/2010/11/04/media-fragments-spec/overview.html#processing-name-value-components">
http://people.opera.com/philipj/2010/11/04/media-fragments-spec/overview.html#processing-name-value-components</a><br />
... and <a href=
"http://people.opera.com/philipj/2010/11/04/media-fragments-spec/overview.html#processing-name-value-components">
http://people.opera.com/philipj/2010/11/04/media-fragments-spec/overview.html#processing-name-value-components</a><br />
... and <a href=
"http://people.opera.com/philipj/2010/11/04/media-fragments-spec/overview.html#processing-name-value-lists">
http://people.opera.com/philipj/2010/11/04/media-fragments-spec/overview.html#processing-name-value-lists</a></p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> no objection
here</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I agree to ask Philip to
put which version he prefers<br />
... the only contentious issue might be: 2.</p>
<p class='phone'>2. Otherwise, the name-value pair does not
represent a media fragment dimension. Validators should emit a
warning. User agents must ignore the name-value pair.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Note:</cite> Because the name-value
pairs are processed in order, the last valid occurence of any
dimension is the one that is used.</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> Validators should
perhaps emit an error rather a warning ?<br />
... the processing order of the dimensions and whether parsing
should be relaxed or not in case of multiple occurences of the
same dimension (except track)</p><a name="action03" id=
"action03"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to send a proposal to close
ISSUE-19 that consists in: clarification text + normative
parsing algorithm [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-200
- Send a proposal to close ISSUE-19 that consists in:
clarification text + normative parsing algorithm [on Raphaël
Troncy - due 2010-11-24].</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> I prefer my latest
version that uses the namevalues syntax</p>
<p class='phone'>great, thanks Philip, we will use this one
then :-)</p>
<h3 id="item03">3. Media fragments URI on web page</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> started by a thread from
Silvia<br />
... discussed at the F2F meeting: <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#item05">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-mediafrag-minutes.html#item05</a><br />
... lead to the notion of optimistic use of the Range header,
only for the 'second' unit<br />
... it cannot be done for any other way for getting part of the
content</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> (except that my
email was about something completely different ;-)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> yeah I think Silvia's
email was about using the html fragment for video</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> which by default is
=> no (ie: it's per page, so you can't generalize this)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> it was not to become
normative - the idea is to propose a syntax that people can
choose to make use of</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> because the html URI
is much more important for most video on the web than the video
URI</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Yves:</cite> there are 2 orthogonal
issues<br />
... the fragment applies to ONE resource you're
retrieving<br />
... if you want the fragment on the page be applied to the
video element on that page, this is your javascript that can do
that, nothing to put in the spec<br />
... the other issue of optimistic use of the Range header,
Philip states that this is up to the URI spec to change<br />
... I quote: "The semantics of the fragment identifier is
defined by each MIME type registration. Before we know the
type, we can't assume anything. Therefore, the only possibility
is if the URL/URI/IRI spec itself states that #t=1 has some
semantics for *all* types and that this should cause headers
Foo and Bar to be sent. However, I truly doubt we'll see
media-specific things like this put into URL/URI/IRI, it's
seems like a gigantic layering violat</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> as I said: the idea
is to give a Web developer that wants to do media fragments on
a Web page a recommendation for how to do the URI structure on
their page - they still have to implement it themselves, it's
just handy to agree on the same approach</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> no need for more
Range headers, or an implementation in browsers or anything -
just a helping hand for Web developers</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> I agree silvia, and I
strongly recommend to add a new Appendix for what you propose,
note to developers :-)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>foolip</cite>> Agreed, as long as
there's no change in UA behavior for #t=1 for HTML I'm fine
with recommending web developers to use the syntax</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> btw: all the video
hosting sites already have such approaches in the URIs so it's
not theoretic</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> I agree that we can't
assume anything, and we shouldn't break any layer, but if we
know enogh context, using Range request with a unit that can
only be applied to the media type we are targeting (and will
default to normal behaviour for all the others)</p>
<p class='phone'>Silvia, would you like to have an action to
write a paragraph, note to developers, that they can easily
implement a javascript to forward the hash on the URI to the
video element?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> is a (not nice)
possible optimisation</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> yup, no problem</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> just don't know when
I'll get around to it :)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> context should be that
URI is in a <video> tag</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>silvia</cite>> sure</p><a name=
"action04" id="action04"></a>
<p class='irc'><<cite>scribe</cite>>
<strong>ACTION:</strong> Silvia to write a paragraph, note to
developers, that they can easily implement a javascript to
forward the hash on the URI to the video element [recorded in
<a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04</a>]</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>trackbot</cite>> Created ACTION-201
- Write a paragraph, note to developers, that they can easily
implement a javascript to forward the hash on the URI to the
video element [on Silvia Pfeiffer - due 2010-11-24].</p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> it is part of my action
to clarify the use of optimistic use of Range header
optimization in case we are in the right context <audio>
or <video> element</p>
<h3 id="item04">4. AOB</h3>
<p class='phone'><cite>Erik:</cite> what is the schedule?</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>Yves</cite>> erik, <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#Reports">http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#Reports</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> finish all actions in
the tracker by the end of the month, so we can transition to
CR<br />
... have a telecon about test cases afterwards, for preparing
the exit CR stage</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>erik</cite>> horay for Thomas!</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> thanks :-)</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> <a href=
"http://tomayac.com/semwebvid/">http://tomayac.com/semwebvid/</a></p>
<p class='phone'><cite>Raphael:</cite> we have discussed Ken
Harrenstien<br />
... from YouTube</p>
<p class='irc'><<cite>tomayac</cite>> funny enough ken
and me have already been in contact with regards to YT closed
captions. i'll catch up with him and let him know about recent
developments.</p>
</div>
<h2><a name="ActionSummary" id="ActionSummary">Summary of Action
Items</a></h2><!-- Action Items -->
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> raphael to add a
clarification text regarding the purpose of the grammar [recorded
in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action01</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> Silvia to write a
paragraph, note to developers, that they can easily implement a
javascript to forward the hash on the URI to the video element
[recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action04</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to add a
clarification text regarding the purpose of the grammar [recorded
in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action02</a>]<br />
<strong>[NEW]</strong> <strong>ACTION:</strong> troncy to send a
proposal to close ISSUE-19 that consists in: clarification text +
normative parsing algorithm [recorded in <a href=
"http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03">http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-mediafrag-minutes.html#action03</a>]<br />
<br />
[End of minutes]<br />
<hr />
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$Date: 2010/11/17 11:02:08 $
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